reversed hilt on palembang keris

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

You've opened my eyes here Alam Shah.

I am most familiar with Javanese society, and in Javanese society it is probably true to say that there are no left-handers.

The left hand is unclean, and we do not use it to give or receive anything, it is unthinkable that a keris could be orientated to a left hand position.

My understanding of what you have written is that in Malaysia and South Sumatera, this non-use of the left hand does not apply.

Is this so?

Interesting comment.
I know that one would not shake with the left hand or give something with the left hand in certain countries / societies.
So, not handling a keris with your left hand seems logical.
But indeed how wide spread is this ? does it apply to sumatra and/or malaysia ?

thanks and best regards,
Willem

[BluErf]

The right hand rule generally applies to Malay society as well, but I think attitudes towards the use of the left hand is relaxing. I still see people eating with their right hands almost all the time.

[A. G. Maisey]

Not in Solo.

It is an acquired skill to pay for something with only your right hand, whilst at the same time receiving what you have bought, and the change.

That left hand just does not exist.

[Lew]

Well since this subject came up I will throw mine on to the heap

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by BluErf

The right hand rule generally applies to Malay society as well, but I think attitudes towards the use of the left hand is relaxing...

Considering that this keris is collected pre ww 2. Is it thinkable that in those days a keris would be left handed.

I still can't figure out what is the most natural position.
The hilt fits like a glove when in left handed position...
But still this is so unnatural to me that I consider to either enlarge the hole in the ukiran or slightly straiten the peksi to give a good fit in right hand position.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Considering that this keris is collected pre ww 2. Is it thinkable that in those days a keris would be left handed.

I still can't figure out what is the most natural position.
The hilt fits like a glove when in left handed position...
But still this is so unnatural to me that I consider to either enlarge the hole in the ukiran or slightly straiten the peksi to give a good fit in right hand position.

Hello Willem,

when you do it, do it very carefully, it will be not the first broken pesi!

Regards,

Detlef

[Rick]

When you change a keris; especially one that is oriented in a specific direction and is old as this one is; do you rob it of its unique history?

What do we think ?
This happened by accident ??

It won't be the same keris .

[David]

Originally Posted by Rick

When you change a keris; especially one that is oriented in a specific direction and is old as this one is; do you rob it of its unique history?

What do we think ?
This happened by accident ??

It won't be the same keris .

Well, pre-war collection or not, i don't think it's possible to really speculate when or under what circumstances this hilt met this keris. Perhaps the pesi did become bent somehow, though the photos don't show it as being much out of line. It is possible though that this hilt was never properly fitted to this blade.
It does seem to me that the odds are against this hilt being fitted for left hand use based on what would seem to be a strong cultural avoidance of left-handed use. I am more willing to go with a mis-fitted hilt or an accident to the pesi than a complete dismissal of a cultural taboo.

[rasdan]

@ Lew - Nice keris!! Love how the batang sarung curves..

@ Willem - Very nice blade. It is hard to get a keris like this with 16 pamor layers (from what I can see) and still have good control between the layers. Most of keris like this that I had seen will only have 8 layers and even that the control is often not very good. Also, to me, the extra condong of the blade gives it an extra aggressive look.

I think the way some keris hilts are previously fixed (for lefty or right) probably can be seen at the bend of the tang. Some Malay keris will have a slight bend of the tang towards either side of the blade (if you see it from the front of the gandik). Probably to suit a lefty or a right handed person.

I noticed Javanese keris also have this feature. This is probably because that particular keris used to have a different style Javanese hilt (deity, demon etc) previously where the hilt is facing to one side as opposed to the standardised Javanese hilts where the hilt faces the gandik as we normally see. Of course not all keris with deity or demon hilts will have a bend tang. It is a matter of preference probably; the same goes for Malay keris.

The cool part about the standardised Javanese hilt is that it is ambidextrous. To me this is very convenient. Not that I had seen many keris, but I had never seen a Javanese keris with a tang bend for a lefty. (Probaby due to the ambidextrous hilt, preference and reasons that Mr Maisey had explained)

I had seen several Peninsula keris tang that are bend as if it is suited for a left handed person. Probably in the Peninsula, keris is still primarily regarded as a weapon and maybe to the Malays it does not matter which hand you use to give somebody a stab

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by David

Well, pre-war collection or not, i don't think it's possible to really speculate when or under what circumstances this hilt met this keris. Perhaps the pesi did become bent somehow, though the photos don't show it as being much out of line. It is possible though that this hilt was never properly fitted to this blade.
It does seem to me that the odds are against this hilt being fitted for left hand use based on what would seem to be a strong cultural avoidance of left-handed use. I am more willing to go with a mis-fitted hilt or an accident to the pesi than a complete dismissal of a cultural taboo.

Well David, law of the land is different from place to place. In some places, it's the survival of the fittest. In those scenarios, one tends to custom-fit the ergonomics of one's weapon and fighting techniques/style. This specific Palembang form, we tend to see it a lot in 'no-frill' configurations, mean simple blades. I've seen hundreds of this keris form from time to time. There's lots of tilting (condong), some when the blade is less tilted or curved, I've seen it modified by adjusting the bent at the tang, there are those like Willem's piece, some are set in fixed position (with damar, I presume).. I'm not good at explaining.. but if you've seen it, you'll know what I mean..

[BluErf]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Considering that this keris is collected pre ww 2. Is it thinkable that in those days a keris would be left handed.

I still can't figure out what is the most natural position.
The hilt fits like a glove when in left handed position...
But still this is so unnatural to me that I consider to either enlarge the hole in the ukiran or slightly straiten the peksi to give a good fit in right hand position.

I think the hilt facing the front is not odd for your keris. the angle of the hilt is not abnormal for a Palembang keris. As I mentioned, most of my Palembang kerises have a pretty strong angulation. Some are straighter of course.

The issue you have is that the hilt seems to be sitting a bit too tall. The keris coming from a pre-WW2 collection may not preclude the hilt being switched at some point before it went into the collection. If I may may make an observation, the hilt's finishing is not the same as the sheath's. We could argue that it is because the hilt is handled a lot, and the finishing's all rubbed off.

Ultimately, we don't know what's the "correct answer". It could be a left-hander keris; the hilt could have been swapped. I guess the most important thing is if you like it.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Considering that this keris is collected pre ww 2. Is it thinkable that in those days a keris would be left handed.

I still can't figure out what is the most natural position.
The hilt fits like a glove when in left handed position...
But still this is so unnatural to me that I consider to either enlarge the hole in the ukiran or slightly straiten the peksi to give a good fit in right hand position.

Hello Willem,

do you have proved if there is still some rotten fabric or rust or other material inside the hole of the handle? Try to drill carefully with a hand brace. Like Kai Wee said isn't the position too odd.

BTW, it is the complete time the labeling Palembang used for all shown keris but I have read and listen that keris or better the shown hilts are from the neighbouring area Pasemah. Is this correct?
Here a fine example with a ivory hilt.

Regards,

Detlef

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Sajen

BTW, it is the complete time the labeling Palembang used for all shown keris but I have read and listen that keris or better the shown hilts are from the neighbouring area Pasemah. Is this correct?
Here a fine example with a ivory hilt.

Detlef

Hi Detlef, perhaps you're right. While I was in Jakarta last year at a keris event (KFTW), I've talked to a dealer from Pasemah. He was showing his items for sale and I've noticed quite a fair bit of this form. However, I've not been to Pasemah. Currently, I was told there's a research group studying Sumatran keris. Hopefully we'll see the findings converted into a book.

[BluErf]

I think the use of the term "Palembang" to refer to the earlier kerises shown is just for convenience. I don't believe all of them came from Palembang area itself. Palembang was the centre of the Sriwijaya empire, so there would probably have been a 'high culture' of keris there, which spread outwards to other parts of the kingdom. Pasemah could have been one of these areas, which explains the similarity in sheath forms. But is the "abstract man" hilt an exclusive regional form to Pasemah only? Even that form has a few variations.

[PenangsangII]

Originally Posted by BluErf

I think the use of the term "Palembang" to refer to the earlier kerises shown is just for convenience. I don't believe all of them came from Palembang area itself. Palembang was the centre of the Sriwijaya empire, so there would probably have been a 'high culture' of keris there, which spread outwards to other parts of the kingdom. Pasemah could have been one of these areas, which explains the similarity in sheath forms. But is the "abstract man" hilt an exclusive regional form to Pasemah only? Even that form has a few variations.

Hi Blue,

its interesting that you mentioned "Sriwijaya" in connection with "high culture of keris" in Palembang. But I think the high culture of keris in Palembang was primarily due to its proximity with Padjajaran. Historically, Palembang was a vassal state of Majapahit (previously Singhasari) thus we see a lot of wide and simple keris blade.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

While I was in Jakarta last year at a keris event (KFTW), I've talked to a dealer from Pasemah. He was showing his items for sale and I've noticed quite a fair bit of this form. However, I've not been to Pasemah. Currently, I was told there's a research group studying Sumatran keris. Hopefully we'll see the findings converted into a book.

Pasemah is not a city but an ethnic group living in the Western hills of South Sumatra and the name of the area (Pasemah plateau) is derived from this group. I did not visit the area as well but heard from several sources in Indonesia that this style of Durga? hilt originates from Bengkulu, a large city on the West coast of South Sumatra and not far from the Pasemah area.