Seldom seen Kilic type

[katana]

I too would see this as a Kilij ....perhaps originally the yelman was more prenounced and this area re-worked to suit an individuals taste The metal removed would change the POB slightly and may or may not improve the cut on a 'back slash' or was better suited to the style of the owner.
Nice piece Gav.

Regards David

[Atlantia]

It's a beauty Gav!!
Are you going to do anything to the blade?

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi David,

Anything is possible with re-profiling but I think not looking at the flow of the blade from the hilt. A grip strap is currently unsecured and the blade from within the hilt all flows perfectly through to the tip.
I was lucky enough to recieve mail on the subject of this Kilij. The content points out with a provenanced example, that blades of this slimmer form were know as early as 1600...still lots to dig through....The Tughra marking ID will be most interesting and it prompts me to find the USB microscopes previously recommended but not actioned... I'll try the camera this weekend to see if that helps first...

Gene,

My intentions are to pass this on to Philip for a complete and proper polish and have a few other loose ends looked at too...however I am walking a very fine line at present with purchases such as this (and others) and keeping you know who happy at the same time....man what a task!!!!
Why walk on thin ice when you can dance...that's my motto!!!!

Gav

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by freebooter

...
... The content points out with a provenanced example, that blades of this slimmer form were know as early as 1600...still lots to dig through....

Here is a provenanced example of yelman'ed shamshir dated to the early 19th C. I've seen a few similarly-shaped/yelman'ed shamshirs also dated to 19th C.
Here is an "official" description:

THE OTTOMAN SILVER-MOUNTED SHAMSHIR PRESENTED TO CAPTAIN COLIN MACKAY OF BIGHOUSE BY MOHAMMED ALI PASHA OF EGYPT IN 1807 FOLLOWING HIS COMMAND OF THE GRENADIER COMPANY OF THE 2ND BATTALION OF THE 78TH REGIMENT OF FOOT AT EL HAMET IN 1807 ...

Calling these blades Shamshir or Kilij is a matter of personal taste, and dating/naming them based on the presence of yelman alone... not that easy.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Here is a provenanced example of yelman'ed shamshir dated to the early 19th C. I've seen a few similarly-shaped/yelman'ed shamshirs also dated to 19th C.
Here is an "official" description:

THE OTTOMAN SILVER-MOUNTED SHAMSHIR PRESENTED TO CAPTAIN COLIN MACKAY OF BIGHOUSE BY MOHAMMED ALI PASHA OF EGYPT IN 1807 FOLLOWING HIS COMMAND OF THE GRENADIER COMPANY OF THE 2ND BATTALION OF THE 78TH REGIMENT OF FOOT AT EL HAMET IN 1807 ...

Calling these blades Shamshir or Kilij is a matter of personal taste, and dating/naming them based on the presence of yelman alone... not that easy.

Indeed many terms in the arms world are a matter of taste , easy is to say sabre

I have seen many of these subtle yelman kilij dated from the ealry 1600s through to the early 1900s. One in particular carrying very good provenance from the early 1600s.

It is unfortunate that the provenance in the example presented only carries weight as so far as the date of gifting, not manufacture.

There are even similar looking blades dating to the second half of the 16th century that carry 19th century fittings......

[tom hyle]

More than anything else the blade style reminds me of 18th/early19th shah shish qa blades, (sha'sh'qa) particularly those associated to Afghanistan.
Consider that the usual kilich blade has two gently curved sections with an abrupt bend around about the middle and is wider than this, while the shamshir is a parabolic curve that gets more and more curved toward the tip. This blade has a relatively circular curve and the shape of the yelman reminds me of the Afghan swords I mentioned, as well.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

More than anything else the blade style reminds me of 18th/early19th shah shish qa blades, (sha'sh'qa) particularly those associated to Afghanistan.

Tom, I didn't see you sneak in here. Any visual reference to help describe this? I am unclear of the comparison you describe

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Consider that the usual kilich blade has two gently curved sections with an abrupt bend around about the middle and is wider than this,

Would you be describing the Pala? It sounds like it to me , got an image?

Originally Posted by tom hyle

while the shamshir is a parabolic curve that gets more and more curved toward the tip. This blade has a relatively circular curve and the shape of the yelman reminds me of the Afghan swords I mentioned, as well.

I'd love to see some camparative images.

Gav