A Very Interesting Kriss...But Where From??

VVV · 16th April 2011, 08:44 AM

All the dress features scream top notch Malaysia but as Kai and David and has indicated the blade doesn't, both the greneng and the Javanese use of warangan.
Maybe the original owner ordered the blade in Indonesia and the fittings were made later locally?
Based on the high quality of the dress he maybe both could affford it and had the connections?
Below is a (another?) refitted (smaller) Javanese blade in a Sundang dress.

Michael

Gustav · 16th April 2011, 10:08 AM

Actually this greneng also don't look like Javanese. The small detail, which helps to fix the clamp over the gandhik - I have never seen something like this on a Javanese keris. It would be worth to look with magnifying glass, if this detail is welded on or original, also, if there are some changes at the places, where the clamp meets gonjo.

Charles - regarding the patina on ivory - if I understand right, about 50% of collar and one ring on handle are replacements? Yet colour seems to be exact the same on all ivory parts.

Michael - your example looks like some blades, which are exactly between Madura and Bugis, this one even slightly more (Sumatran?) Bugis.

A. G. Maisey · 16th April 2011, 12:54 PM

You're correct Gustav:- the greneng on Charles' blade is very definitely not Javanese, nor is it Balinese. In fact I cannot identify what pattern this greneng is. I do not know where this blade was made, only where it was not made.

There is a similar problem with the blade shown by Michael, it is most definitely not Javanese, it does display some Madura characteristics, but not consistently, nor strongly enough to definitely tag it as Madura. I don't know where it is from, but I do know it was not made in Jawa.

Spunjer · 16th April 2011, 10:17 PM

Here's a snippet that might be of interest to you, Charles, in regards to on how cultures mingled back in those days on that little corner of the world.

The Sulu Archipelago seems to have become the dumping ground for the Oriental world. Here you find renegade Arabs; native Indian soldiers, for whom India has become too hot; even the Sudan, bad as it is, occasionally has a man so bad, he has to drift to Sulu. Like a Western mining camp of old, Sulu is full of adventure. - John F. Bass, Harper's Weekly, November 18, 1899

That little inside joke, on finding a wootz kris blade, might not be so far fetched, after all...

A. G. Maisey · 16th April 2011, 11:34 PM

Wootz in Javanese keris is not at all far fetched.

It has been positively identified in the examinations carried out by Prof. Jerzy Piaskowski, I have handled Javanese blades that I considered to be of wootz, and it is known as "pamor urap-urap" ( hurap-hurap, urab-urab, hurab-hurab) in Solo.

It is mentioned by Harsinuksmo, but regrettably his illustration of this pamor does not agree in the slightest degree with the actual pamor.

16th April 2011, 08:44 AM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	All the dress features scream top notch Malaysia but as Kai and David and has indicated the blade doesn't, both the greneng and the Javanese use of warangan. Maybe the original owner ordered the blade in Indonesia and the fittings were made later locally? Based on the high quality of the dress he maybe both could affford it and had the connections? Below is a (another?) refitted (smaller) Javanese blade in a Sundang dress. Michael Attached Images

16th April 2011, 10:08 AM	#2
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Actually this greneng also don't look like Javanese. The small detail, which helps to fix the clamp over the gandhik - I have never seen something like this on a Javanese keris. It would be worth to look with magnifying glass, if this detail is welded on or original, also, if there are some changes at the places, where the clamp meets gonjo. Charles - regarding the patina on ivory - if I understand right, about 50% of collar and one ring on handle are replacements? Yet colour seems to be exact the same on all ivory parts. Michael - your example looks like some blades, which are exactly between Madura and Bugis, this one even slightly more (Sumatran?) Bugis.

16th April 2011, 12:54 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	You're correct Gustav:- the greneng on Charles' blade is very definitely not Javanese, nor is it Balinese. In fact I cannot identify what pattern this greneng is. I do not know where this blade was made, only where it was not made. There is a similar problem with the blade shown by Michael, it is most definitely not Javanese, it does display some Madura characteristics, but not consistently, nor strongly enough to definitely tag it as Madura. I don't know where it is from, but I do know it was not made in Jawa.

16th April 2011, 10:17 PM	#4
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Here's a snippet that might be of interest to you, Charles, in regards to on how cultures mingled back in those days on that little corner of the world. The Sulu Archipelago seems to have become the dumping ground for the Oriental world. Here you find renegade Arabs; native Indian soldiers, for whom India has become too hot; even the Sudan, bad as it is, occasionally has a man so bad, he has to drift to Sulu. Like a Western mining camp of old, Sulu is full of adventure. - John F. Bass, Harper's Weekly, November 18, 1899 That little inside joke, on finding a wootz kris blade, might not be so far fetched, after all...

16th April 2011, 11:34 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Wootz in Javanese keris is not at all far fetched. It has been positively identified in the examinations carried out by Prof. Jerzy Piaskowski, I have handled Javanese blades that I considered to be of wootz, and it is known as "pamor urap-urap" ( hurap-hurap, urab-urab, hurab-hurab) in Solo. It is mentioned by Harsinuksmo, but regrettably his illustration of this pamor does not agree in the slightest degree with the actual pamor.