Seldom seen Kilic type

Gavin Nugent · 16th April 2011, 06:24 AM

Well today was a most interesting day. I was lucky enough to have a wonderful guest visit and also a day with the family away....the combination gave us a good amount of time to inspect numerous swords that are normally static.

Two very interesting facets came to light. First being the profile of the blade; the spine is very much that of a Pala, only very subtle. What I hadn't noticed before but my guest did was that a hands spread away from the hilt the spine dips quickly towards the cutting edge before leading up towards the raised Yelman, glance would miss this but a finger touch does not. If you have a keen eye you can see this step in the images above.

The other interesting aspect found were two very small fine stamps to the silver, one to the throat piece, one to the drag piece. The mark after close examination is a Tughra. Of which ruler I am uncertain and will endevour to photograph and enquire further on the subject so perhaps a more accurate dating can be found.

I should recieve guests more often.

katana · 18th April 2011, 08:14 PM

I too would see this as a Kilij ....perhaps originally the yelman was more prenounced and this area re-worked to suit an individuals taste

The metal removed would change the POB slightly and may or may not improve the cut on a 'back slash' or was better suited to the style of the owner.
Nice piece Gav.

Regards David

Atlantia · 18th April 2011, 08:22 PM

It's a beauty Gav!!
Are you going to do anything to the blade?

Gavin Nugent · 18th April 2011, 11:43 PM

Hi David,

Anything is possible with re-profiling but I think not looking at the flow of the blade from the hilt. A grip strap is currently unsecured and the blade from within the hilt all flows perfectly through to the tip.
I was lucky enough to recieve mail on the subject of this Kilij. The content points out with a provenanced example, that blades of this slimmer form were know as early as 1600...still lots to dig through....The Tughra marking ID will be most interesting and it prompts me to find the USB microscopes previously recommended but not actioned... I'll try the camera this weekend to see if that helps first...

Gene,

My intentions are to pass this on to Philip for a complete and proper polish and have a few other loose ends looked at too...however I am walking a very fine line at present with purchases such as this (and others) and keeping you know who happy at the same time....man what a task!!!!
Why walk on thin ice when you can dance...that's my motto!!!!

Gav

ALEX · 2nd June 2011, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

...
... The content points out with a provenanced example, that blades of this slimmer form were know as early as 1600...still lots to dig through....

Here is a provenanced example of yelman'ed shamshir dated to the early 19th C. I've seen a few similarly-shaped/yelman'ed shamshirs also dated to 19th C.
Here is an "official" description:

THE OTTOMAN SILVER-MOUNTED SHAMSHIR PRESENTED TO CAPTAIN COLIN MACKAY OF BIGHOUSE BY MOHAMMED ALI PASHA OF EGYPT IN 1807 FOLLOWING HIS COMMAND OF THE GRENADIER COMPANY OF THE 2ND BATTALION OF THE 78TH REGIMENT OF FOOT AT EL HAMET IN 1807 ...

Calling these blades Shamshir or Kilij is a matter of personal taste, and dating/naming them based on the presence of yelman alone... not that easy.

Gavin Nugent · 2nd June 2011, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Here is a provenanced example of yelman'ed shamshir dated to the early 19th C. I've seen a few similarly-shaped/yelman'ed shamshirs also dated to 19th C.
Here is an "official" description:

THE OTTOMAN SILVER-MOUNTED SHAMSHIR PRESENTED TO CAPTAIN COLIN MACKAY OF BIGHOUSE BY MOHAMMED ALI PASHA OF EGYPT IN 1807 FOLLOWING HIS COMMAND OF THE GRENADIER COMPANY OF THE 2ND BATTALION OF THE 78TH REGIMENT OF FOOT AT EL HAMET IN 1807 ...

Calling these blades Shamshir or Kilij is a matter of personal taste, and dating/naming them based on the presence of yelman alone... not that easy.

Indeed many terms in the arms world are a matter of taste

, easy is to say sabre

I have seen many of these subtle yelman kilij dated from the ealry 1600s through to the early 1900s. One in particular carrying very good provenance from the early 1600s.

It is unfortunate that the provenance in the example presented only carries weight as so far as the date of gifting, not manufacture.

There are even similar looking blades dating to the second half of the 16th century that carry 19th century fittings......

tom hyle · 11th June 2011, 07:27 AM

More than anything else the blade style reminds me of 18th/early19th shah shish qa blades, (sha'sh'qa) particularly those associated to Afghanistan.
Consider that the usual kilich blade has two gently curved sections with an abrupt bend around about the middle and is wider than this, while the shamshir is a parabolic curve that gets more and more curved toward the tip. This blade has a relatively circular curve and the shape of the yelman reminds me of the Afghan swords I mentioned, as well.

16th April 2011, 06:24 AM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	WOW Well today was a most interesting day. I was lucky enough to have a wonderful guest visit and also a day with the family away....the combination gave us a good amount of time to inspect numerous swords that are normally static. Two very interesting facets came to light. First being the profile of the blade; the spine is very much that of a Pala, only very subtle. What I hadn't noticed before but my guest did was that a hands spread away from the hilt the spine dips quickly towards the cutting edge before leading up towards the raised Yelman, glance would miss this but a finger touch does not. If you have a keen eye you can see this step in the images above. The other interesting aspect found were two very small fine stamps to the silver, one to the throat piece, one to the drag piece. The mark after close examination is a Tughra. Of which ruler I am uncertain and will endevour to photograph and enquire further on the subject so perhaps a more accurate dating can be found. I should recieve guests more often.

11th June 2011, 07:27 AM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	More than anything else the blade style reminds me of 18th/early19th shah shish qa blades, (sha'sh'qa) particularly those associated to Afghanistan. Consider that the usual kilich blade has two gently curved sections with an abrupt bend around about the middle and is wider than this, while the shamshir is a parabolic curve that gets more and more curved toward the tip. This blade has a relatively circular curve and the shape of the yelman reminds me of the Afghan swords I mentioned, as well. Last edited by tom hyle; 12th June 2011 at 05:12 AM. Reason: typo

18th April 2011, 08:14 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I too would see this as a Kilij ....perhaps originally the yelman was more prenounced and this area re-worked to suit an individuals taste The metal removed would change the POB slightly and may or may not improve the cut on a 'back slash' or was better suited to the style of the owner. Nice piece Gav. Regards David

18th April 2011, 08:22 PM	#3
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	It's a beauty Gav!! Are you going to do anything to the blade?

18th April 2011, 11:43 PM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Hi David, Anything is possible with re-profiling but I think not looking at the flow of the blade from the hilt. A grip strap is currently unsecured and the blade from within the hilt all flows perfectly through to the tip. I was lucky enough to recieve mail on the subject of this Kilij. The content points out with a provenanced example, that blades of this slimmer form were know as early as 1600...still lots to dig through....The Tughra marking ID will be most interesting and it prompts me to find the USB microscopes previously recommended but not actioned... I'll try the camera this weekend to see if that helps first... Gene, My intentions are to pass this on to Philip for a complete and proper polish and have a few other loose ends looked at too...however I am walking a very fine line at present with purchases such as this (and others) and keeping you know who happy at the same time....man what a task!!!! Why walk on thin ice when you can dance...that's my motto!!!! Gav