A Very Interesting Kriss...But Where From??

CharlesS · 15th April 2011, 03:59 PM

Gustav,

Yes, this piece had the ivory restored(in combination with what was still there) at the collar or mouth of the scabbard.

I agree...though Indonesian kerises are not my specialty...this is not a Balinese blade, though at first glance it has a smooth finish like some Balinese blades...when you actually feel it, is is not smooth. Nothing else, other than perhaps the size, suggests Balinese in my mind, even in my limited knowledge of that subject.

Kai,

I couldn't agree more on the Malay association, but to say there is absolutely no Moro influence here, then we will have to agree to disagree. I am not familar with any other Malay or Indonesian weapon with this hilt style(pommel....wrapped handle...with rings). I think the initial appearance(of the hilt alone) is Moro even if upon closer inspection it clearly is not Moro made. If you want to say that the Malay sundang is a separate style of weapon from the Moro kriss, then that becomes another argument altogether, one that raises the ire of some Moro collectors. I got into exactly that conversation with collectors in Baltimore, with no concensus.

The baca baca is attached to the hilt.

David,

The flash and my poor lighting betray the patina to the ivory and wood and even the cord wrap. My pics make it look "gleaming" when it is not. There is no doubt it has some real age on it, and is not a dyed or "shoepolish" job.

This is definitely not a combat weapon, even though it is beautifully balanced. Actually, I wonder if it was ever even meant to be taken out of the the scabbard, but the patina to the ivory hilt and the upper portion of the scabbard makes it clear that it has been well handled. Again, I think this is some sort of status piece, or perhaps even presentation piece, but having handled it, it is definitely too much invested in "weapons art" to be remotely associated with anything cheap or touristy.

Spunjer · 15th April 2011, 11:48 PM

nice kris, charles! should you get tired of it, i'm standing in line with no one in front of me

ok, here's a small quiz:

what does these pictures have in common?

Spunjer · 16th April 2011, 12:25 AM

upper left is a sikh mercenary. the rest are blades we associate from different parts of asia. a jambiya with an unusual blade, another jambiya and two different mandaus...

the sikh was a personal bodyguard of Sultan Kiram. he actually had a squad of sikh bodyguards. the blades were all provenanced in moroland. of interest is the mandau at the bottom which was given as a gift to (then) Col. Webb Hayes, an american officer, by one Datu Fantog. added below is a steel halbred of the Swiss Pontifical Guard that was given to Mr. Hayes by the Sultan himself. this was all back in 1899, before the Moro Uprisings. Mindanao and Sulu were some pretty busy crossroads back in those days...

my point is, whose to say the blade on Charles' kris wasn't acquired in indo, brought back to sulu, and had a native panday applied the rest of the dress? not a common okir you say? maybe the panday was non-muslim

hypothetically if that's the case, wouldn't the kris as a whole be of sulu provenance? or would it still be called an indo keris?

hence my apprehension on static identification of moro kris...

CharlesS · 16th April 2011, 02:24 AM

Hey Spunjer! Thanks, and very interesting insights. I agree that the mysteries of the trade routes will always leave room for us to recognise there is so much we will never know, at least by way of documentation.

VVV · 16th April 2011, 08:44 AM

All the dress features scream top notch Malaysia but as Kai and David and has indicated the blade doesn't, both the greneng and the Javanese use of warangan.
Maybe the original owner ordered the blade in Indonesia and the fittings were made later locally?
Based on the high quality of the dress he maybe both could affford it and had the connections?
Below is a (another?) refitted (smaller) Javanese blade in a Sundang dress.

Michael

Gustav · 16th April 2011, 10:08 AM

Actually this greneng also don't look like Javanese. The small detail, which helps to fix the clamp over the gandhik - I have never seen something like this on a Javanese keris. It would be worth to look with magnifying glass, if this detail is welded on or original, also, if there are some changes at the places, where the clamp meets gonjo.

Charles - regarding the patina on ivory - if I understand right, about 50% of collar and one ring on handle are replacements? Yet colour seems to be exact the same on all ivory parts.

Michael - your example looks like some blades, which are exactly between Madura and Bugis, this one even slightly more (Sumatran?) Bugis.

A. G. Maisey · 16th April 2011, 12:54 PM

You're correct Gustav:- the greneng on Charles' blade is very definitely not Javanese, nor is it Balinese. In fact I cannot identify what pattern this greneng is. I do not know where this blade was made, only where it was not made.

There is a similar problem with the blade shown by Michael, it is most definitely not Javanese, it does display some Madura characteristics, but not consistently, nor strongly enough to definitely tag it as Madura. I don't know where it is from, but I do know it was not made in Jawa.

15th April 2011, 11:48 PM	#2
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	nice kris, charles! should you get tired of it, i'm standing in line with no one in front of me ok, here's a small quiz: what does these pictures have in common? Attached Images Last edited by Spunjer; 16th April 2011 at 12:56 AM.

16th April 2011, 12:25 AM	#3
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	upper left is a sikh mercenary. the rest are blades we associate from different parts of asia. a jambiya with an unusual blade, another jambiya and two different mandaus... the sikh was a personal bodyguard of Sultan Kiram. he actually had a squad of sikh bodyguards. the blades were all provenanced in moroland. of interest is the mandau at the bottom which was given as a gift to (then) Col. Webb Hayes, an american officer, by one Datu Fantog. added below is a steel halbred of the Swiss Pontifical Guard that was given to Mr. Hayes by the Sultan himself. this was all back in 1899, before the Moro Uprisings. Mindanao and Sulu were some pretty busy crossroads back in those days... my point is, whose to say the blade on Charles' kris wasn't acquired in indo, brought back to sulu, and had a native panday applied the rest of the dress? not a common okir you say? maybe the panday was non-muslim hypothetically if that's the case, wouldn't the kris as a whole be of sulu provenance? or would it still be called an indo keris? hence my apprehension on static identification of moro kris... Attached Images Last edited by Spunjer; 16th April 2011 at 01:44 AM.

16th April 2011, 08:44 AM	#5
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	All the dress features scream top notch Malaysia but as Kai and David and has indicated the blade doesn't, both the greneng and the Javanese use of warangan. Maybe the original owner ordered the blade in Indonesia and the fittings were made later locally? Based on the high quality of the dress he maybe both could affford it and had the connections? Below is a (another?) refitted (smaller) Javanese blade in a Sundang dress. Michael Attached Images

15th April 2011, 03:59 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Gustav, Yes, this piece had the ivory restored(in combination with what was still there) at the collar or mouth of the scabbard. I agree...though Indonesian kerises are not my specialty...this is not a Balinese blade, though at first glance it has a smooth finish like some Balinese blades...when you actually feel it, is is not smooth. Nothing else, other than perhaps the size, suggests Balinese in my mind, even in my limited knowledge of that subject. Kai, I couldn't agree more on the Malay association, but to say there is absolutely no Moro influence here, then we will have to agree to disagree. I am not familar with any other Malay or Indonesian weapon with this hilt style(pommel....wrapped handle...with rings). I think the initial appearance(of the hilt alone) is Moro even if upon closer inspection it clearly is not Moro made. If you want to say that the Malay sundang is a separate style of weapon from the Moro kriss, then that becomes another argument altogether, one that raises the ire of some Moro collectors. I got into exactly that conversation with collectors in Baltimore, with no concensus. The baca baca is attached to the hilt. David, The flash and my poor lighting betray the patina to the ivory and wood and even the cord wrap. My pics make it look "gleaming" when it is not. There is no doubt it has some real age on it, and is not a dyed or "shoepolish" job. This is definitely not a combat weapon, even though it is beautifully balanced. Actually, I wonder if it was ever even meant to be taken out of the the scabbard, but the patina to the ivory hilt and the upper portion of the scabbard makes it clear that it has been well handled. Again, I think this is some sort of status piece, or perhaps even presentation piece, but having handled it, it is definitely too much invested in "weapons art" to be remotely associated with anything cheap or touristy.

16th April 2011, 02:24 AM	#4
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Hey Spunjer! Thanks, and very interesting insights. I agree that the mysteries of the trade routes will always leave room for us to recognise there is so much we will never know, at least by way of documentation.

16th April 2011, 10:08 AM	#6
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Actually this greneng also don't look like Javanese. The small detail, which helps to fix the clamp over the gandhik - I have never seen something like this on a Javanese keris. It would be worth to look with magnifying glass, if this detail is welded on or original, also, if there are some changes at the places, where the clamp meets gonjo. Charles - regarding the patina on ivory - if I understand right, about 50% of collar and one ring on handle are replacements? Yet colour seems to be exact the same on all ivory parts. Michael - your example looks like some blades, which are exactly between Madura and Bugis, this one even slightly more (Sumatran?) Bugis.

16th April 2011, 12:54 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	You're correct Gustav:- the greneng on Charles' blade is very definitely not Javanese, nor is it Balinese. In fact I cannot identify what pattern this greneng is. I do not know where this blade was made, only where it was not made. There is a similar problem with the blade shown by Michael, it is most definitely not Javanese, it does display some Madura characteristics, but not consistently, nor strongly enough to definitely tag it as Madura. I don't know where it is from, but I do know it was not made in Jawa.