Seldom seen Kilic type

Gavin Nugent · 12th April 2011, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Gav, there are Indian blades with similar yelman, and they're still called Tulwars:-). You're right - this is a Turkish sword, but does yelman alone make it a Kilij? The overall profile, shape and dimensions indicate "shamshir", so it's 3 to 1:-) Would be interesting to hear other opinions.
You're right - fine quality rhino hilt, cool.

Alex, Turkish alone makes it a Kilij ;-) Sword in Turkish = Kilıç / Kilij. The Yelman is typically noted being of early Turkic origins so there is for want of a better word a 'pedigree' there and it is these influences in Mughal India that could account for some of these blades you note in Talwar.

RSWORD · 12th April 2011, 06:01 PM

This is a lovely sword with a fantastic bold wootz blade. It is nice to have such a complete example. I would date the mounts to the late 18th century with the blade probably earlier.

Personally, I would refer to this sword as a kilij. I tend to classify by blade and then hilt. So this example, to me, would be an Ottoman hilted kilij. Having a yelman and a widened blade towards the tip both say kilij to me. Again, this is more of a personal classification and don't know that it is uniformally applied amongst collectors. A shamshir to me is a blade of wedged shape cross section of slight or moderate curvature up to deep curvature but lacking a yelman. The spine is of continuous arc from handle to tip. So in your example of Indian swords being referred to as tulwar, I tend to elaborate a bit more. Let's say it is a shamshir(by my definition) blade. I would refer to that piece as a tulwar-hilted shamshir. With blades being traded, passed along, remounted often, to me the blade deserves its own attribution and then the handle and mounts are separately described or named. Of course, it can get muddied as some blades are not readily classified as either shamshir or kilij. Many Indian blades, for example, are more unique and I may classify them strictly as tulwar as opposed to tulwar hilted unique Indian blade sword.

Gavin Nugent · 14th April 2011, 12:34 AM

Hi Rick,

Thanks for coming in and I am glad you found this piece interesting.

With no comparative examples of blade profile that I know of dating is pretty hard but I suspect 1750-1800 for the entire piece...would like to know more if any member or reader is more versed in the specifics of these weapons.

I'll endevour if time permits to post another photo of the Yelman looking on to the spine rather than profile.

There is an art to the design and angle of the suspension baldirc, the draw cut is perfect in that the blade's tip automatically, when drawn, slashes at throat level.

Gavin Nugent · 16th April 2011, 06:24 AM

Well today was a most interesting day. I was lucky enough to have a wonderful guest visit and also a day with the family away....the combination gave us a good amount of time to inspect numerous swords that are normally static.

Two very interesting facets came to light. First being the profile of the blade; the spine is very much that of a Pala, only very subtle. What I hadn't noticed before but my guest did was that a hands spread away from the hilt the spine dips quickly towards the cutting edge before leading up towards the raised Yelman, glance would miss this but a finger touch does not. If you have a keen eye you can see this step in the images above.

The other interesting aspect found were two very small fine stamps to the silver, one to the throat piece, one to the drag piece. The mark after close examination is a Tughra. Of which ruler I am uncertain and will endevour to photograph and enquire further on the subject so perhaps a more accurate dating can be found.

I should recieve guests more often.

katana · 18th April 2011, 08:14 PM

I too would see this as a Kilij ....perhaps originally the yelman was more prenounced and this area re-worked to suit an individuals taste

The metal removed would change the POB slightly and may or may not improve the cut on a 'back slash' or was better suited to the style of the owner.
Nice piece Gav.

Regards David

Atlantia · 18th April 2011, 08:22 PM

It's a beauty Gav!!
Are you going to do anything to the blade?

Gavin Nugent · 18th April 2011, 11:43 PM

Hi David,

Anything is possible with re-profiling but I think not looking at the flow of the blade from the hilt. A grip strap is currently unsecured and the blade from within the hilt all flows perfectly through to the tip.
I was lucky enough to recieve mail on the subject of this Kilij. The content points out with a provenanced example, that blades of this slimmer form were know as early as 1600...still lots to dig through....The Tughra marking ID will be most interesting and it prompts me to find the USB microscopes previously recommended but not actioned... I'll try the camera this weekend to see if that helps first...

Gene,

My intentions are to pass this on to Philip for a complete and proper polish and have a few other loose ends looked at too...however I am walking a very fine line at present with purchases such as this (and others) and keeping you know who happy at the same time....man what a task!!!!
Why walk on thin ice when you can dance...that's my motto!!!!

Gav

16th April 2011, 06:24 AM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	WOW Well today was a most interesting day. I was lucky enough to have a wonderful guest visit and also a day with the family away....the combination gave us a good amount of time to inspect numerous swords that are normally static. Two very interesting facets came to light. First being the profile of the blade; the spine is very much that of a Pala, only very subtle. What I hadn't noticed before but my guest did was that a hands spread away from the hilt the spine dips quickly towards the cutting edge before leading up towards the raised Yelman, glance would miss this but a finger touch does not. If you have a keen eye you can see this step in the images above. The other interesting aspect found were two very small fine stamps to the silver, one to the throat piece, one to the drag piece. The mark after close examination is a Tughra. Of which ruler I am uncertain and will endevour to photograph and enquire further on the subject so perhaps a more accurate dating can be found. I should recieve guests more often.

12th April 2011, 06:01 PM	#2
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	This is a lovely sword with a fantastic bold wootz blade. It is nice to have such a complete example. I would date the mounts to the late 18th century with the blade probably earlier. Personally, I would refer to this sword as a kilij. I tend to classify by blade and then hilt. So this example, to me, would be an Ottoman hilted kilij. Having a yelman and a widened blade towards the tip both say kilij to me. Again, this is more of a personal classification and don't know that it is uniformally applied amongst collectors. A shamshir to me is a blade of wedged shape cross section of slight or moderate curvature up to deep curvature but lacking a yelman. The spine is of continuous arc from handle to tip. So in your example of Indian swords being referred to as tulwar, I tend to elaborate a bit more. Let's say it is a shamshir(by my definition) blade. I would refer to that piece as a tulwar-hilted shamshir. With blades being traded, passed along, remounted often, to me the blade deserves its own attribution and then the handle and mounts are separately described or named. Of course, it can get muddied as some blades are not readily classified as either shamshir or kilij. Many Indian blades, for example, are more unique and I may classify them strictly as tulwar as opposed to tulwar hilted unique Indian blade sword.

14th April 2011, 12:34 AM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Hi Rick, Thanks for coming in and I am glad you found this piece interesting. With no comparative examples of blade profile that I know of dating is pretty hard but I suspect 1750-1800 for the entire piece...would like to know more if any member or reader is more versed in the specifics of these weapons. I'll endevour if time permits to post another photo of the Yelman looking on to the spine rather than profile. There is an art to the design and angle of the suspension baldirc, the draw cut is perfect in that the blade's tip automatically, when drawn, slashes at throat level.

18th April 2011, 08:14 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I too would see this as a Kilij ....perhaps originally the yelman was more prenounced and this area re-worked to suit an individuals taste The metal removed would change the POB slightly and may or may not improve the cut on a 'back slash' or was better suited to the style of the owner. Nice piece Gav. Regards David

18th April 2011, 08:22 PM	#6
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	It's a beauty Gav!! Are you going to do anything to the blade?

18th April 2011, 11:43 PM	#7
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Hi David, Anything is possible with re-profiling but I think not looking at the flow of the blade from the hilt. A grip strap is currently unsecured and the blade from within the hilt all flows perfectly through to the tip. I was lucky enough to recieve mail on the subject of this Kilij. The content points out with a provenanced example, that blades of this slimmer form were know as early as 1600...still lots to dig through....The Tughra marking ID will be most interesting and it prompts me to find the USB microscopes previously recommended but not actioned... I'll try the camera this weekend to see if that helps first... Gene, My intentions are to pass this on to Philip for a complete and proper polish and have a few other loose ends looked at too...however I am walking a very fine line at present with purchases such as this (and others) and keeping you know who happy at the same time....man what a task!!!! Why walk on thin ice when you can dance...that's my motto!!!! Gav