Two Very Fine Landsknecht Swords, Southern Germany, ca. 1490 and 1525

Matchlock · 30th March 2011, 08:21 PM

The rest of the images of lot 164.

Jim McDougall · 31st March 2011, 06:59 AM

Hi Michael,
Thank you so much for posting these amazing swords! and it really is exciting to see such historic treasures especially with my favorite topic, these markings.

Do you have illustrations of this unusual 'Gothic' letter A on the barrels as you mentioned? It is strange to have the center bar in the shape of a 'V'.
It would indeed be great to have this turn out to have the Augsburg association.
I know the armourers in Augsburg used the letter A surrounded by 'pearls' or dots and the fir cone, and one of the more renowned Anton Peffenhauser used the triskele (sort of a three legged swastika).

I am wondering if perhaps the 'A' might have been used as a kind of armoury or allegiance type marking as Augsburg was one of the number of Imperial Free Cities, sort of independant entities who answered directly to the Holy Roman Emperor only. These cities operated thier own armies, trade and economic alliances and so on in these times, contemporary with the Hanseatic League. It is wonderful to see an example with this type of latten (inlaid brass).

With the fantastic two hand sword, the markings are most intriguing, and very much remind me of the kinds of symbolic groupings seen on swords associated with the mysterious Vehdic courts, or of the 'Free Judges'.
These German tribunals were well known in the 14th and 15th century but less so later, though they were certainly still known. What seems most to remind me of these are the 'cross fourchee' or cross with forked arms. In medieval times, these type crosses were used to denote Christian piety, and in the case of certain executioner or heading swords, these crosses occur with other symbols noting the piety of those who were charged with carrying out justice.
Again these markings in latten are outstanding, and the symbolism seems to carry out the representation of authority. It is often believed that these large swords were used as a kind of bearing sword in assembly of these courts rather than actual execution weapons, however it would be hard to say. These of course like many weapons may have been actual combat swords that came into use in these capacities later in thier working lives.

While of course not declaring that this is what the sword is, I am simply describing these associations as worthy of note in considering the nature of the markings.

The well known 'running wolf' of Passau is seen here in of course the typical interpretive application. These marks were indeed seen as magical after a time suggesting power and invincibility as associated with the arms production of Passau in these times. Though the marks were most likely originally guild compliance markings, their association with the quality of the weapons and imbued talismanic power became legendary over time.

I just wanted to add things that come to mind as I observe these wonderful swords, and congratulations to your friend for such fantastic acquisitions and sharing them here.

All the very best,
Jim

Matchlock · 31st March 2011, 09:17 AM

Hi Jim and all,

I am extremely sad to say that both my friend Ottmar and I were cruelly cheated on the second sword by the incompetent management of Auctions Imperial. Our emailed (!) high bid was 18,000 USD. I have Oliver's approving reply email assuring at the same time that our bid was accepted up to 100,000 USD. Now I have been told that there was a so called 'bidding mistake' with the computer and the sword was 'paid and taken' by somebody else for 12,500 USD!!! We got each and every single proof!!!!

Gosh, is this a banana repubic where high bids are not accepted??!!

This catastrophe of handling foreign bids will go all around though in the international collectors' scene, believe me!!!

Michael

Emanuel · 31st March 2011, 02:51 PM

Hi Michael, Jim,

I got to handle the two-hander at the auction. First time I held such a big sword, it was a pretty awesome feeling.
Sorry to hear of the troubles with absentee bids

Regards,
Emanuel

Jim McDougall · 31st March 2011, 04:36 PM

Michael, it appears my congratulations were premature, I am so sorry this has happened. I had hoped we would be on the way to some interesting discussion here, and very much enjoyed the hours researching these anyway.

Best,
Jim

laEspadaAncha · 31st March 2011, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi Jim and all,

I am extremely sad to say that both my friend Ottmar and I were cruelly cheated on the second sword by the incompetent management of Auctions Imperial. Our emailed (!) high bid was 18,000 USD. I have Oliver's approving reply email assuring at the same time that our bid was accepted up to 100,000 UDS. Now I have been told that there was a so called 'bidding mistake' with the computer and the sword was 'paid and taken' by somebody else for 12,500 USD!!! We got each and every single proof!!!!

Gosh, is this a banana repubic where high bids are not accepted??!!

This catastrophe of handling foreign bids will go all around though in the international collectors' scene, believe me!!!

Michael

Hi Michael,

Sadly I had a similar experience with AI last year (albeit with a significantly less expensive item).

I understand an auction house's willingness to show some love to the floor bidders, but you do that by dropping the hammer before a high bid is accepted from elsewhere, whether it be from cyberspace or an absentee bidder, and not by accepting a high bid and then disallowing it after the fact. Sorry to hear about your experience...

Matchlock · 31st March 2011, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Hi Michael,

Sadly I had a similar experience with AI last year (albeit with a significantly less expensive item).

I understand an auction house's willingness to show some love to the floor bidders, but you do that by dropping the hammer before a high bid is accepted from elsewhere, whether it be from cyberspace or an absentee bidder, and not by accepting a high bid and then disallowing it after the fact. Sorry to hear about your experience...

Thank you for coming in; so we are not the only ones.

In more than thirty years of international bidding practice, nothing like this has ever happened to me. We have expierenced that our high bids were used till the last cent but an item hammered down to a much lower bid - I feel this is not only unfair beyond words, it also means a financial loss to both the auctioneer and the consigner. To me this means double cheating.

But now back to the swords.

Jim, I am attaching images of a 500 year old barrel and stock of a haquebut wall gun in the reserve collection of the Museum für das Fürstentum Lüneburg, Northern Germany. You will see the same Gothic majuscule A for Augsburg struck on the barrel.

So this seems to be the older Augsburg city proof mark; the wellknown pyr (pine cone) seems not to have been used for firearms before the mid 16th c.

Best,
Michael

Carl M · 1st April 2011, 12:32 AM

Hi Matchlock,

In all honestly, I think you guys got a blessing in disguise when you didn't get that second two-hander. I was at the auction (I bought a few pieces, notably the bilbo a transitional rapier and some smallswords), I held every piece there several times and I must say that something was very wrong with that two-hander. The crossguard was said to be later, but the sword itself was waaaaaaaaay too heavy to be functional. It felt like it weighed 15 lbs with poor balance to boot. Functional, large 2 handers are usually in the 6 lb range and well balanced.

All of the dealers that I was there with concurred. It was definitely a composite as stated. The blade looked like it could be original (but you never know). The guard was definitely Victorian and the pommel didn't look right. Looking at the pommel in thos pics shows that the tang was just bent over the pommel in an amateur fashion, not peened. I have never seen that done before. Definitely not worth $12,500. Personally, I wouldn't have paid $800 for it.

Even if it is German and 16th century, there is nothing confirming it to be a landsknecht sword. This sword does not look to be a typical Landsknecht pattern.

Jim McDougall · 1st April 2011, 12:02 PM

Extremely well placed notes Carl, and I am inclined to share your opinions on the nature of the refurbished mounts, which as noted in the auction description are of the Victorian period. It is fairly a matter of preference to individual collectors on how much they are willing to accept as far as items that are composite in order to acquire certain authentic components, in most cases of course the blades in swords.

While the hilt does appear to emulate the earlier styles in degree, these Victorian items were clearly made for impressive display rather than functionality. It seems to me that it has been noted that in the industry of reproducing medieval arms and armour in these times, there were instances of authentic early components being put with these then newly fashioned ones in such cases. One of the most renowned producers of these was the atelier of Ernst Schmitt in Munich, and I believe that there were a number of his weapons among the holdings in the Higgins Museum. It would seem however that this apparantly amateur peening would steer away from the work of this particular maker. Regardless, it seems that the weapon was apparantly among venerable company in the Higgins Museum prior to its deaccess in 1951, and has its own established provence distinguished by having been in an esteemed collection.

In any case, the blade on this one was to me of great interest, as I noted in my earlier post, and carries some intriguing markings that may potentially have some much deeper historic connections, as also noted. I believe these were the source of the interest shown by Michael and his friend, and extremely unfortunate that this situation developed with the auction.

Michael, thank you so much for posting the excellent illustration of the early Augsburg marking! With this I can see exactly what you mean in the comparison. I have been trying to discover whether the letter 'A' as seen in these examples in majascule script, and in this curious style with the flattened v shape crossbar and the elongated serif at the top , can be found in other paleographic examples of medieval Germany. It does not of course correspond to the various examples of Fraktur or other 'Gothic' script, and I am wondering if it might be something found in religious psalters or Gospels of the time.

According to Stockel (ref: "One Hundred Great Guns" , Merrill Lindsay, 1967, p.220), "...Augsburg control marks are the earliest known marks used on guns" with a bronze gun c.1480, noting there are marks found on crossbows as well. Also, that "...Augsburg had for a long time been a center for the manufacture of armour and had used identifying marks".

Since from early times such majuscule scripts were used in scriptoriums centuries earlier, and it is well known that Bishops and Abbots were often in effect controllers of weaponry and ordnance materials, might it be presumed that such style lettering would be adopted in marking weapons even in these later times? It sounds like if this is the case with the old Augsburg proof mark, then your suggestion is right on target.

It would be great if we could find this letter in this configuration among letters in these medieval scripts to corroborate, or perhaps the letter became stylized independantly to become the specific marking rather than a copy of the actual type letter itself.

Also, I wonder of the mark can be found on armour and crossbows as well?

All the best,
Jim

30th March 2011, 08:21 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	The rest of the images of lot 164. Attached Images

31st March 2011, 06:59 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Michael, Thank you so much for posting these amazing swords! and it really is exciting to see such historic treasures especially with my favorite topic, these markings. Do you have illustrations of this unusual 'Gothic' letter A on the barrels as you mentioned? It is strange to have the center bar in the shape of a 'V'. It would indeed be great to have this turn out to have the Augsburg association. I know the armourers in Augsburg used the letter A surrounded by 'pearls' or dots and the fir cone, and one of the more renowned Anton Peffenhauser used the triskele (sort of a three legged swastika). I am wondering if perhaps the 'A' might have been used as a kind of armoury or allegiance type marking as Augsburg was one of the number of Imperial Free Cities, sort of independant entities who answered directly to the Holy Roman Emperor only. These cities operated thier own armies, trade and economic alliances and so on in these times, contemporary with the Hanseatic League. It is wonderful to see an example with this type of latten (inlaid brass). With the fantastic two hand sword, the markings are most intriguing, and very much remind me of the kinds of symbolic groupings seen on swords associated with the mysterious Vehdic courts, or of the 'Free Judges'. These German tribunals were well known in the 14th and 15th century but less so later, though they were certainly still known. What seems most to remind me of these are the 'cross fourchee' or cross with forked arms. In medieval times, these type crosses were used to denote Christian piety, and in the case of certain executioner or heading swords, these crosses occur with other symbols noting the piety of those who were charged with carrying out justice. Again these markings in latten are outstanding, and the symbolism seems to carry out the representation of authority. It is often believed that these large swords were used as a kind of bearing sword in assembly of these courts rather than actual execution weapons, however it would be hard to say. These of course like many weapons may have been actual combat swords that came into use in these capacities later in thier working lives. While of course not declaring that this is what the sword is, I am simply describing these associations as worthy of note in considering the nature of the markings. The well known 'running wolf' of Passau is seen here in of course the typical interpretive application. These marks were indeed seen as magical after a time suggesting power and invincibility as associated with the arms production of Passau in these times. Though the marks were most likely originally guild compliance markings, their association with the quality of the weapons and imbued talismanic power became legendary over time. I just wanted to add things that come to mind as I observe these wonderful swords, and congratulations to your friend for such fantastic acquisitions and sharing them here. All the very best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 31st March 2011 at 07:13 AM.

31st March 2011, 09:17 AM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Jim and all, I am extremely sad to say that both my friend Ottmar and I were cruelly cheated on the second sword by the incompetent management of Auctions Imperial. Our emailed (!) high bid was 18,000 USD. I have Oliver's approving reply email assuring at the same time that our bid was accepted up to 100,000 USD. Now I have been told that there was a so called 'bidding mistake' with the computer and the sword was 'paid and taken' by somebody else for 12,500 USD!!! We got each and every single proof!!!! Gosh, is this a banana repubic where high bids are not accepted??!! This catastrophe of handling foreign bids will go all around though in the international collectors' scene, believe me!!! Michael Last edited by Matchlock; 31st March 2011 at 08:20 PM.

1st April 2011, 12:02 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Extremely well placed notes Carl, and I am inclined to share your opinions on the nature of the refurbished mounts, which as noted in the auction description are of the Victorian period. It is fairly a matter of preference to individual collectors on how much they are willing to accept as far as items that are composite in order to acquire certain authentic components, in most cases of course the blades in swords. While the hilt does appear to emulate the earlier styles in degree, these Victorian items were clearly made for impressive display rather than functionality. It seems to me that it has been noted that in the industry of reproducing medieval arms and armour in these times, there were instances of authentic early components being put with these then newly fashioned ones in such cases. One of the most renowned producers of these was the atelier of Ernst Schmitt in Munich, and I believe that there were a number of his weapons among the holdings in the Higgins Museum. It would seem however that this apparantly amateur peening would steer away from the work of this particular maker. Regardless, it seems that the weapon was apparantly among venerable company in the Higgins Museum prior to its deaccess in 1951, and has its own established provence distinguished by having been in an esteemed collection. In any case, the blade on this one was to me of great interest, as I noted in my earlier post, and carries some intriguing markings that may potentially have some much deeper historic connections, as also noted. I believe these were the source of the interest shown by Michael and his friend, and extremely unfortunate that this situation developed with the auction. Michael, thank you so much for posting the excellent illustration of the early Augsburg marking! With this I can see exactly what you mean in the comparison. I have been trying to discover whether the letter 'A' as seen in these examples in majascule script, and in this curious style with the flattened v shape crossbar and the elongated serif at the top , can be found in other paleographic examples of medieval Germany. It does not of course correspond to the various examples of Fraktur or other 'Gothic' script, and I am wondering if it might be something found in religious psalters or Gospels of the time. According to Stockel (ref: "One Hundred Great Guns" , Merrill Lindsay, 1967, p.220), "...Augsburg control marks are the earliest known marks used on guns" with a bronze gun c.1480, noting there are marks found on crossbows as well. Also, that "...Augsburg had for a long time been a center for the manufacture of armour and had used identifying marks". Since from early times such majuscule scripts were used in scriptoriums centuries earlier, and it is well known that Bishops and Abbots were often in effect controllers of weaponry and ordnance materials, might it be presumed that such style lettering would be adopted in marking weapons even in these later times? It sounds like if this is the case with the old Augsburg proof mark, then your suggestion is right on target. It would be great if we could find this letter in this configuration among letters in these medieval scripts to corroborate, or perhaps the letter became stylized independantly to become the specific marking rather than a copy of the actual type letter itself. Also, I wonder of the mark can be found on armour and crossbows as well? All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 1st April 2011 at 12:37 PM.

31st March 2011, 02:51 PM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Michael, Jim, I got to handle the two-hander at the auction. First time I held such a big sword, it was a pretty awesome feeling. Sorry to hear of the troubles with absentee bids Regards, Emanuel

31st March 2011, 04:36 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Michael, it appears my congratulations were premature, I am so sorry this has happened. I had hoped we would be on the way to some interesting discussion here, and very much enjoyed the hours researching these anyway. Best, Jim

1st April 2011, 12:32 AM	#8
Carl M Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 20	Hi Matchlock, In all honestly, I think you guys got a blessing in disguise when you didn't get that second two-hander. I was at the auction (I bought a few pieces, notably the bilbo a transitional rapier and some smallswords), I held every piece there several times and I must say that something was very wrong with that two-hander. The crossguard was said to be later, but the sword itself was waaaaaaaaay too heavy to be functional. It felt like it weighed 15 lbs with poor balance to boot. Functional, large 2 handers are usually in the 6 lb range and well balanced. All of the dealers that I was there with concurred. It was definitely a composite as stated. The blade looked like it could be original (but you never know). The guard was definitely Victorian and the pommel didn't look right. Looking at the pommel in thos pics shows that the tang was just bent over the pommel in an amateur fashion, not peened. I have never seen that done before. Definitely not worth $12,500. Personally, I wouldn't have paid $800 for it. Even if it is German and 16th century, there is nothing confirming it to be a landsknecht sword. This sword does not look to be a typical Landsknecht pattern.