For discusion

A. G. Maisey · 26th March 2011, 12:34 AM

When we consider the reworking of blades for economic reasons we need to realise that the keris market in Indonesia, especially in Jawa has not always been as it is now.

In today's economic environment I believe that it is absolutely certain that nobody would spend the time, effort and money to take an old blade and totally rework it to produce a crude attempt at falsification.

However, things have not always been as they are now.

During the 1960's and 1970's the economic situation for ordinary people living in Indonesia was dire.

Going back before the 1950's we had a period of turmoil, and before that we had the colonial period.

During the colonial period a European demand for the unusual in keris arose, and at the same time, colonial policies ensured a depressed standard of living for native Javanese. We may look back upon this time as a golden period. Maybe it was for Europeans, but I can still recall the photos I have seen of the entrance to a public garden in the hills behind Malang in East Jawa. A sign at the entrance read (translated) " DOGS AND JAVANESE ARE FORBIDDEN ENTRY". Those photos were taken in the 1930's.

The point I am trying to make is that prior to the revival of keris culture that occurred in the late 1970's and early 1980's, it was well worth the effort for people in Jawa to alter an old , ordinary keris to make it more valuable.

Prior to the revival of keris culture in Jawa, keris prices outside Indonesia were relatively high and keris outside Indonesia were relatively rare.

When I began collecting in the 1950's , a respectable keris, a respectable Indo-Persian piece, and a respectable Japanese sword all sold for around the same price.

Prior to 1967 the highest price ever paid at auction in the UK for an Oriental Dagger was achieved at Christies for a Balinese keris. This price was equivalent to $US2940 at that time.

This high level of comparative value for keris was the primary driver in the production of deliberate forgeries.

Quite frankly, I get sick and tired of the continually recurring comments of many collectors about fakes and forgeries and reproductions and tourist keris in today's market.

Mostly these collectors confuse current era keris production with that which is not genuine. Certainly there are keris which are not genuine, but the current era out and out forgeries are seldom seen by collectors in the western world for the simple reason that western collectors do not buy in the very high market level that good present day forgeries occupy.

Present day production of keris is 99% directed at the local market in Indonesia, not at the very few people who have an interest in keris in the world outside Indonesia.

And the same applies to present day forgeries. A good forger no longer wants a few dollars for his work. He wants what the genuine article will sell for, and that means tens of thousands of dollars. Today's forgers do not waste time by producing keris that western collectors will buy, they shoot for the top of the market, and that is in Indonesia.

To see the genuine forgeries in keris we need to look at an earlier era.

We need to look at a time when the artisans of Jawa still possessed the skills which permitted the extremely delicate fire welding that a good blade alteration demands. I doubt that it would be possible today to find a smith in Jawa today who could fire weld with the delicacy needed to take the very thin piece of metal taken from the tip of a big , old, Tuban blade and attach it to the sorsoran to permit a singo barong, or a puthut to be carved. Nor could we find people today who have the necessary skills and necessary need, to put the time into altering an old blade to make it an even halfway convincing forgery. The last man whom I knew who was capable of this died about ten years ago, and he was well into his eighties when he went.

In my core collection I have keris which are definite alterations. In my opinion these are very, very collectible pieces, as when they are old, well done alterations they represent a level of skill that no longer exists.

This keris of Danny's is in my opinion most definitely an altered keris. It is not the best altered keris I have ever seen, but it is certainly not bad, and in my opinion is well worth keeping as a part of any truly representative collection.

BluErf · 26th March 2011, 03:50 AM

Thanks Alan for sharing a good perspective into the reason why such reworked kerises were made and their relevance in today's market condition. Adds a valuable dimension to the overly simplistic "genuine-forgery" view towards collecting kerises.

BluErf · 26th March 2011, 03:51 AM

Apart from that, I'm also interested in seeing what an original keris puthut (perhaps photos from a museum) looks like, if anyone is willing to share.

Sajen · 26th March 2011, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Apart from that, I'm also interested in seeing what an original keris puthut (perhaps photos from a museum) looks like, if anyone is willing to share.

Hello Kai Wee,

This is my keris puthut and I am pretty sure that it is an original old one. Here some pictures from it. It is also a pichit keris, I hope it is clearly to seen by the pictures. Would be interesting how you call a keris like this.

Best regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 26th March 2011, 11:30 PM

This morning I have recieved a PM from one of our esteemed members.

This PM requested me to consider the removal of some of the text in a previous post. The text that the writer of the PM apparently found offensive was my translation of a sign that had stood at the entrance of a public garden in East Jawa during the 1930's.

It has occurred to me that failure to understand the context of my writing could generate offense in somebody who is not a native English speaker.

Please permit me to clarify this passage:-

During the colonial period a European demand for the unusual in keris arose, and at the same time, colonial policies ensured a depressed standard of living for native Javanese. We may look back upon this time as a golden period. Maybe it was for Europeans, but I can still recall the photos I have seen of the entrance to a public garden in the hills behind Malang in East Jawa. A sign at the entrance read (translated) " DOGS AND JAVANESE ARE FORBIDDEN ENTRY". Those photos were taken in the 1930's.

This translation is necessary to demonstrate to those who have no understanding of the situation in Jawa during colonial times of just exactly how the Javanese of the working classes were treated and regarded during those times.

This translation is in fact a condemnation of the colonial attitude, it is most definitely not a slight directed at the people of Jawa.

Too often Europeans and other people from western cultures who have only a cursory knowledge of Jawa will read a few early travel books and they gain the opinion that Jawa during the colonial times was paradise on earth. I have had people who had lived and worked in Jawa prior to the Japanese occupation, say as much to me.

However, this view of Jawa fails to acknowledge the plight of the pribumi upon whose backs the Dutch colonialists and their Chinese overseers rode.

I have had other people who have noted the failures of the new nation of Indonesia comment to me upon the stupidity of the pribumi in wanting to have their own nation, and to govern themselves when in fact they were little better than children, and would have been better off if they had retained the Dutch to guide and to manage them.

This flawed opinion fails to acknowledge that in colonial Jawa the working class people of Jawa were regarded as something less than human beings.

All people have the desire of self determination and to manage their own affairs.

This desire was denied the people of Jawa when they were under the colonial heel.

It is only by attempting to understand the attitude of the colonialists that we can understand the powerful forces that drove the people of the old Dutch East Indies to fight for their freedom from European domination.

The actual language in which the original sign is couched is precisely in line with signs which we can find today in Central Jawa, such as :- "Anjing2 boleh kencing disini" ( Dogs may urinate here) atau "Hanya anjing kencing disini" (Only a dog will urinate here). Walk around the market areas of Central Jawa towns and you will find an abundance of these signs --- signs which have been produced by Javanese people, for Javanese people.

BluErf · 27th March 2011, 05:40 AM

During the colonial era, there was a similar sign put up at the entrance of a park in Shanghai, China. It said "Chinese and dogs are not allowed in the park". This was told to me and fellow tour group members by a tour guide who brought us to the park. I was about ten years old then, but it left a very deep impression on me.

Alam Shah · 27th March 2011, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Apart from that, I'm also interested in seeing what an original keris puthut (perhaps photos from a museum) looks like, if anyone is willing to share.

Pictures courtesy of pak Ganjawulung. Taken from National Museum, Jakarta.

Featured with a Banten styled sheath, a keris estimated to be from the Pajajaran period, with dapur Puthut Kembar. Believed to be the property of Sultan Muhyi of Banten, with its unique hilt, probably made from horn.

semar · 29th March 2011, 04:01 AM

petut

BluErf · 30th March 2011, 01:57 PM

Thanks all for sharing. Thanks to Ganjawulung too for sharing pics of that fantastic Banten keris. I love the sheath tremendously!

Marcokeris · 30th March 2011, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semar

petut

Very nice

David · 31st March 2011, 01:47 PM

Does anyone care to expound upon the meaning or purpose of the puthut dhapur? How does the meaning or purpose change if it is a single or a double? Who were these blades suited to? I have heard some conflicting stories and love to hear what members here think.

29th March 2011, 04:01 AM	#8
semar Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 272	fore compare petut Attached Images

26th March 2011, 12:34 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	When we consider the reworking of blades for economic reasons we need to realise that the keris market in Indonesia, especially in Jawa has not always been as it is now. In today's economic environment I believe that it is absolutely certain that nobody would spend the time, effort and money to take an old blade and totally rework it to produce a crude attempt at falsification. However, things have not always been as they are now. During the 1960's and 1970's the economic situation for ordinary people living in Indonesia was dire. Going back before the 1950's we had a period of turmoil, and before that we had the colonial period. During the colonial period a European demand for the unusual in keris arose, and at the same time, colonial policies ensured a depressed standard of living for native Javanese. We may look back upon this time as a golden period. Maybe it was for Europeans, but I can still recall the photos I have seen of the entrance to a public garden in the hills behind Malang in East Jawa. A sign at the entrance read (translated) " DOGS AND JAVANESE ARE FORBIDDEN ENTRY". Those photos were taken in the 1930's. The point I am trying to make is that prior to the revival of keris culture that occurred in the late 1970's and early 1980's, it was well worth the effort for people in Jawa to alter an old , ordinary keris to make it more valuable. Prior to the revival of keris culture in Jawa, keris prices outside Indonesia were relatively high and keris outside Indonesia were relatively rare. When I began collecting in the 1950's , a respectable keris, a respectable Indo-Persian piece, and a respectable Japanese sword all sold for around the same price. Prior to 1967 the highest price ever paid at auction in the UK for an Oriental Dagger was achieved at Christies for a Balinese keris. This price was equivalent to $US2940 at that time. This high level of comparative value for keris was the primary driver in the production of deliberate forgeries. Quite frankly, I get sick and tired of the continually recurring comments of many collectors about fakes and forgeries and reproductions and tourist keris in today's market. Mostly these collectors confuse current era keris production with that which is not genuine. Certainly there are keris which are not genuine, but the current era out and out forgeries are seldom seen by collectors in the western world for the simple reason that western collectors do not buy in the very high market level that good present day forgeries occupy. Present day production of keris is 99% directed at the local market in Indonesia, not at the very few people who have an interest in keris in the world outside Indonesia. And the same applies to present day forgeries. A good forger no longer wants a few dollars for his work. He wants what the genuine article will sell for, and that means tens of thousands of dollars. Today's forgers do not waste time by producing keris that western collectors will buy, they shoot for the top of the market, and that is in Indonesia. To see the genuine forgeries in keris we need to look at an earlier era. We need to look at a time when the artisans of Jawa still possessed the skills which permitted the extremely delicate fire welding that a good blade alteration demands. I doubt that it would be possible today to find a smith in Jawa today who could fire weld with the delicacy needed to take the very thin piece of metal taken from the tip of a big , old, Tuban blade and attach it to the sorsoran to permit a singo barong, or a puthut to be carved. Nor could we find people today who have the necessary skills and necessary need, to put the time into altering an old blade to make it an even halfway convincing forgery. The last man whom I knew who was capable of this died about ten years ago, and he was well into his eighties when he went. In my core collection I have keris which are definite alterations. In my opinion these are very, very collectible pieces, as when they are old, well done alterations they represent a level of skill that no longer exists. This keris of Danny's is in my opinion most definitely an altered keris. It is not the best altered keris I have ever seen, but it is certainly not bad, and in my opinion is well worth keeping as a part of any truly representative collection.

26th March 2011, 03:50 AM	#2
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Thanks Alan for sharing a good perspective into the reason why such reworked kerises were made and their relevance in today's market condition. Adds a valuable dimension to the overly simplistic "genuine-forgery" view towards collecting kerises.

26th March 2011, 03:51 AM	#3
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Apart from that, I'm also interested in seeing what an original keris puthut (perhaps photos from a museum) looks like, if anyone is willing to share.

26th March 2011, 11:30 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	This morning I have recieved a PM from one of our esteemed members. This PM requested me to consider the removal of some of the text in a previous post. The text that the writer of the PM apparently found offensive was my translation of a sign that had stood at the entrance of a public garden in East Jawa during the 1930's. It has occurred to me that failure to understand the context of my writing could generate offense in somebody who is not a native English speaker. Please permit me to clarify this passage:- During the colonial period a European demand for the unusual in keris arose, and at the same time, colonial policies ensured a depressed standard of living for native Javanese. We may look back upon this time as a golden period. Maybe it was for Europeans, but I can still recall the photos I have seen of the entrance to a public garden in the hills behind Malang in East Jawa. A sign at the entrance read (translated) " DOGS AND JAVANESE ARE FORBIDDEN ENTRY". Those photos were taken in the 1930's. This translation is necessary to demonstrate to those who have no understanding of the situation in Jawa during colonial times of just exactly how the Javanese of the working classes were treated and regarded during those times. This translation is in fact a condemnation of the colonial attitude, it is most definitely not a slight directed at the people of Jawa. Too often Europeans and other people from western cultures who have only a cursory knowledge of Jawa will read a few early travel books and they gain the opinion that Jawa during the colonial times was paradise on earth. I have had people who had lived and worked in Jawa prior to the Japanese occupation, say as much to me. However, this view of Jawa fails to acknowledge the plight of the pribumi upon whose backs the Dutch colonialists and their Chinese overseers rode. I have had other people who have noted the failures of the new nation of Indonesia comment to me upon the stupidity of the pribumi in wanting to have their own nation, and to govern themselves when in fact they were little better than children, and would have been better off if they had retained the Dutch to guide and to manage them. This flawed opinion fails to acknowledge that in colonial Jawa the working class people of Jawa were regarded as something less than human beings. All people have the desire of self determination and to manage their own affairs. This desire was denied the people of Jawa when they were under the colonial heel. It is only by attempting to understand the attitude of the colonialists that we can understand the powerful forces that drove the people of the old Dutch East Indies to fight for their freedom from European domination. The actual language in which the original sign is couched is precisely in line with signs which we can find today in Central Jawa, such as :- "Anjing2 boleh kencing disini" ( Dogs may urinate here) atau "Hanya anjing kencing disini" (Only a dog will urinate here). Walk around the market areas of Central Jawa towns and you will find an abundance of these signs --- signs which have been produced by Javanese people, for Javanese people.

27th March 2011, 05:40 AM	#6
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	During the colonial era, there was a similar sign put up at the entrance of a park in Shanghai, China. It said "Chinese and dogs are not allowed in the park". This was told to me and fellow tour group members by a tour guide who brought us to the park. I was about ten years old then, but it left a very deep impression on me.

30th March 2011, 01:57 PM	#9
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Thanks all for sharing. Thanks to Ganjawulung too for sharing pics of that fantastic Banten keris. I love the sheath tremendously!

31st March 2011, 01:47 PM	#11
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,219	Does anyone care to expound upon the meaning or purpose of the puthut dhapur? How does the meaning or purpose change if it is a single or a double? Who were these blades suited to? I have heard some conflicting stories and love to hear what members here think.