Composite Sword

A Senefelder · 25th March 2011, 03:46 PM

Fernando, the blade is very nice and seems of good quality and I am fairly certain that it is original myself. The guard is a massive heavy affair, bulky and weighting as much as the rest of the components combined I think. It throws the weight of the sword off in the hand it is so heavy.

fernando · 25th March 2011, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Senefelder

... The guard is a massive heavy affair ...

Not like a fraternity item but more loke wall hanging replica ?

A Senefelder · 25th March 2011, 04:18 PM

The guard is 1/8 of an inch or nearly 3mm. thick all over and at a guess weights at least a pound if not a bit more.

Jim McDougall · 25th March 2011, 05:41 PM

This is a really fascinating item, as these kinds of pieces so full of arcane symbolism and elaborately crafted are so mysterious. There is of course no easy reference to consult, save perhaps the catalogs of Horstmann & Bros. of Philadelphia who furnished varying society, fraternal and theatrical regalia. This one seems to be 'one off' much as other items I have seen from latter 19th century. They are indeed curiosities, and another bizarre sword I once saw had an old broadsword blade but the hilt was a huge skull and crossbones, made of formed brass and much in mind of the Indian pata, or gauntlet sword.

As Fernando has as always, astutely noted the blade is indeed earlier and with the much imitated name of Pichinio, in the usual variant spellings. I am inclined by the notched places at the top to agree that it was probably originally on a cuphilt.

It would seem as agreed, that this hilt is well made, but clearly decorative rather than functional, and would seem to have been fabricated to carry symbolic themes associated with the ceremony, ritual and tradition of the many fraternal and 'secret' societies formed after the Civil War. The five point star and the neoclassic sword resembling early Roman types; the skull and crossbones; the image of Caesar are all fraternally significant symbols often seen on the regalia weapons.

The medallion alluding to Frederick III of Austria (1415-1493) is with reference to this key figure of the Habsburg dynasty who was also the Holy Roman Emperor of the time and the father of Maximilan I. He was of course extremely important historically, but seems to have likely had possible connections noteworthy to later secret societies and groups, which is only suggested by his cryptic use of acronyms and symbolism. He used the letters A.E.I.O.U. on his personal things and many other instances.

The overall appearance of the hilt reflects the joined circles of some early Spanish rapiers, the wide quillons of cuphilts, the pommel similar to cuphilts, the basketguard is crafted in the manner of Scottish hilts, but in the encompassing style of the German 'schlager' fencing sword. The symbolism is largely fraternal or secret society oriented, however the use of reference to this Holy Roman Emperor remains unclear. The date, as well noted, does not seem to apply to any particular date key to Frederick, though it was indeed during his reign. Regarding the 1471, such numbers in a gemetric sense seem however to have been applied mostly with names and phrases on blades, using combined numbers and thier occult values talismanically.

The skull and bones were apparantly significant in Masonic ritual in Germany, which of course came to the US, though it is unclear whether the symbol was particularly prevalent in these lodges in certain countries one more than another. Freemasonry is of course well known in Scotland, which might account for the baskethilt style here, or Germany, with the schlager style hilt, these observations are obvious. In Freemasonry one of the key figures ceremonially as I understand, is the Tyler. The sword used by the Tyler is significant in meeting at the lodge and distinctly symbolic. I have always considered that many of these often highly crafted swords which are often carrying deep symbolism may well have been Tyler's swords. In many cases these swords are refurbished weapons that belonged to esteemed members, and were significant as having been in combat, captured weapons, or these kinds of associations.

Attachment is Fredericks monogram reflecting profuse symbolism

Well, I know......another treatise.....sorry

but its an interesting sword!!! It gives a guy stuck in the middle of Texas in a Winnebago somethin' to do!!!!

All the best,
Jim

A Senefelder · 25th March 2011, 06:07 PM

Jim, thanks so much for the input. I will pass this on to my friend. He's had this one for a while and really was at a loss about it. My ideas regarding its possible fraternal connection were guesswork at best as it is an area i'm weak in. With its original guard in place I imagine this sword would have been very quick in the hand. Your idea of a Tyler sword would potetially be a good road of investigation regarding this piece.

Jim McDougall · 25th March 2011, 06:53 PM

You're welcome Alan, and your observations and thoughts were well placed and I wouldnt consider them guesswork. Most of what we can do with these kinds of anomalies is try to place as sound ideas as possible with information known.
In looking at the wrapped grip and quillons, another possible association for hilt components would be the cottage industry in the Victorian period for reproduced examples of arms and armour. One of the leading producers was the atelier of Ernst Schmitt in Munich ("Arms and Armour from the Atelier of Ernst Schmitt" , Mowbray, 1967) and this is noted on the MyArmoury forum.
He produced from 1870s-1930s and numbers of his items are found at the Higgins Armoury in Worcester, Mass.

Authentic rapier and broadsword blades often entered the U.S. via Mexico and the Spanish Colonies, for example numbers of the swords with blades carrying the 'Spanish motto' , i.e. Draw Me Not Without Reason' etc. were captured during the Mexican-American War and sometimes found use on American officers swords. In the same manner, I have discovered a number of instances where these type blades have been found in Tyler swords in various Masonic lodges in research over the years.

All the best,
Jim

A Senefelder · 25th March 2011, 07:12 PM

Jim, very familiar with Mr. Schmitt ( his ID'ed work often trades at the same value as low to mid level Renaissance originals ). I don't know if you'd seen this before http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_schmidt.html but the interactive feature of the article allowing you to compare Schmitts work with the originals he was copying is neat http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_schmidt_comp.html. Having seen and owned a few very nice Victorian reproductions built using some original components ( something I understand Mr.Schmitt did on occasion, using an original armour component and constructing a harness around it to match ) my first thought when my friend showed it to me was that it was Victorian. As the evening went on and I contiued to handle the piece I had a harder and harder time ignoring the symbols in the guard and the possible fraternal/Freemasonic character they may have.

25th March 2011, 05:41 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	This is a really fascinating item, as these kinds of pieces so full of arcane symbolism and elaborately crafted are so mysterious. There is of course no easy reference to consult, save perhaps the catalogs of Horstmann & Bros. of Philadelphia who furnished varying society, fraternal and theatrical regalia. This one seems to be 'one off' much as other items I have seen from latter 19th century. They are indeed curiosities, and another bizarre sword I once saw had an old broadsword blade but the hilt was a huge skull and crossbones, made of formed brass and much in mind of the Indian pata, or gauntlet sword. As Fernando has as always, astutely noted the blade is indeed earlier and with the much imitated name of Pichinio, in the usual variant spellings. I am inclined by the notched places at the top to agree that it was probably originally on a cuphilt. It would seem as agreed, that this hilt is well made, but clearly decorative rather than functional, and would seem to have been fabricated to carry symbolic themes associated with the ceremony, ritual and tradition of the many fraternal and 'secret' societies formed after the Civil War. The five point star and the neoclassic sword resembling early Roman types; the skull and crossbones; the image of Caesar are all fraternally significant symbols often seen on the regalia weapons. The medallion alluding to Frederick III of Austria (1415-1493) is with reference to this key figure of the Habsburg dynasty who was also the Holy Roman Emperor of the time and the father of Maximilan I. He was of course extremely important historically, but seems to have likely had possible connections noteworthy to later secret societies and groups, which is only suggested by his cryptic use of acronyms and symbolism. He used the letters A.E.I.O.U. on his personal things and many other instances. The overall appearance of the hilt reflects the joined circles of some early Spanish rapiers, the wide quillons of cuphilts, the pommel similar to cuphilts, the basketguard is crafted in the manner of Scottish hilts, but in the encompassing style of the German 'schlager' fencing sword. The symbolism is largely fraternal or secret society oriented, however the use of reference to this Holy Roman Emperor remains unclear. The date, as well noted, does not seem to apply to any particular date key to Frederick, though it was indeed during his reign. Regarding the 1471, such numbers in a gemetric sense seem however to have been applied mostly with names and phrases on blades, using combined numbers and thier occult values talismanically. The skull and bones were apparantly significant in Masonic ritual in Germany, which of course came to the US, though it is unclear whether the symbol was particularly prevalent in these lodges in certain countries one more than another. Freemasonry is of course well known in Scotland, which might account for the baskethilt style here, or Germany, with the schlager style hilt, these observations are obvious. In Freemasonry one of the key figures ceremonially as I understand, is the Tyler. The sword used by the Tyler is significant in meeting at the lodge and distinctly symbolic. I have always considered that many of these often highly crafted swords which are often carrying deep symbolism may well have been Tyler's swords. In many cases these swords are refurbished weapons that belonged to esteemed members, and were significant as having been in combat, captured weapons, or these kinds of associations. Attachment is Fredericks monogram reflecting profuse symbolism Well, I know......another treatise.....sorry but its an interesting sword!!! It gives a guy stuck in the middle of Texas in a Winnebago somethin' to do!!!! All the best, Jim Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 25th March 2011 at 07:01 PM.

25th March 2011, 03:46 PM	#1
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	Fernando, the blade is very nice and seems of good quality and I am fairly certain that it is original myself. The guard is a massive heavy affair, bulky and weighting as much as the rest of the components combined I think. It throws the weight of the sword off in the hand it is so heavy.

25th March 2011, 04:18 PM	#3
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	The guard is 1/8 of an inch or nearly 3mm. thick all over and at a guess weights at least a pound if not a bit more.

25th March 2011, 06:07 PM	#5
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	Jim, thanks so much for the input. I will pass this on to my friend. He's had this one for a while and really was at a loss about it. My ideas regarding its possible fraternal connection were guesswork at best as it is an area i'm weak in. With its original guard in place I imagine this sword would have been very quick in the hand. Your idea of a Tyler sword would potetially be a good road of investigation regarding this piece.

25th March 2011, 06:53 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	You're welcome Alan, and your observations and thoughts were well placed and I wouldnt consider them guesswork. Most of what we can do with these kinds of anomalies is try to place as sound ideas as possible with information known. In looking at the wrapped grip and quillons, another possible association for hilt components would be the cottage industry in the Victorian period for reproduced examples of arms and armour. One of the leading producers was the atelier of Ernst Schmitt in Munich ("Arms and Armour from the Atelier of Ernst Schmitt" , Mowbray, 1967) and this is noted on the MyArmoury forum. He produced from 1870s-1930s and numbers of his items are found at the Higgins Armoury in Worcester, Mass. Authentic rapier and broadsword blades often entered the U.S. via Mexico and the Spanish Colonies, for example numbers of the swords with blades carrying the 'Spanish motto' , i.e. Draw Me Not Without Reason' etc. were captured during the Mexican-American War and sometimes found use on American officers swords. In the same manner, I have discovered a number of instances where these type blades have been found in Tyler swords in various Masonic lodges in research over the years. All the best, Jim

25th March 2011, 07:12 PM	#7
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	Jim, very familiar with Mr. Schmitt ( his ID'ed work often trades at the same value as low to mid level Renaissance originals ). I don't know if you'd seen this before http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_schmidt.html but the interactive feature of the article allowing you to compare Schmitts work with the originals he was copying is neat http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_schmidt_comp.html. Having seen and owned a few very nice Victorian reproductions built using some original components ( something I understand Mr.Schmitt did on occasion, using an original armour component and constructing a harness around it to match ) my first thought when my friend showed it to me was that it was Victorian. As the evening went on and I contiued to handle the piece I had a harder and harder time ignoring the symbols in the guard and the possible fraternal/Freemasonic character they may have.