A cup hilt sword for coments.

M ELEY · 23rd March 2011, 06:56 AM

Ahhh, the narwhale worked as planned! Actually, I really didn't intend to steer attention away from this great sword. Last comment on the claimore, though. There was a great example with apparent age in an old Man-at-Arms magazine from the 90's. Impressive piece.

Now, back to this rapier. I am amazed once again with seeing details of the nails in the hilt. Truly, their design reminds me of Japanese menuki and someone went to a lot of trouble artistically to create them. They are just beautiful and their shapes appear to represent objects, at least symbolicly, just as Japanese sword furniture would have (I used to have an old wak with fuchi/menuki showing koi eating salmon roe, lily pads, cherry blossoms, etc, with gold relief. I miss them sometimes-sigh). Fernando, I agree with you that if you wish to replace them, you may want to inlist the work of a jeweler. An incredible sword. Now that you have this one, you can just send me one of your other plainer types (

)

Jim McDougall · 23rd March 2011, 04:27 PM

Yes Capt. Mark, the narwhal 'red herring'

and it would seem the Scots would naturally have had an affinity for this horn as thier national arms are supported heraldically by flanking unicorns

Carl, Im really glad you posted your bilbo here! It is really a great example, and good to see these Spanish Colonial weapons becoming so well represented here. These were of course military swords, but not really a particular regimental pattern. The dates that are applied to these swords such as '1728' were simply dates referring to regulamentos (if I recall correctly) of the years 1728 and 1768 where military inspections were emplaced to record the state of units and presidios at the time. Swords with these traditionally styled hilts were in use widely and over extremely long periods of time, especially on the frontiers.

Your blade is well placed here as it corresponds nicely to Fernando's cuphilt and is also of the somewhat triangularly elongated form, yet with the typical hexagonal cross section of the later dragoon blades.

The initials N M N on the blade are not for a maker but actually would probably be an acronym for a religious invocation such as those seen on much earlier sword blades, again a tradition long held and carried forward from such sacredotal inscriptions. Examples known from earlier are i.e. N E M, = Nomen Eternis Nomen and N O M , =Nomen Omnipotentis Nomen.

While cuphilts such as Fernando's were apparantly a favored horsemans weapon, the bilbos seem to have been often associated with infantry officers of line regiments in most cases I have seen. There seem to be a number of examples from Cuba and units in the Spanish holdings in Florida and Louisiana.

The differences between rapier and bilbo as seen here are in my view purely semantical, as these are both actually 'arming swords' which reflect earlier styles of rapier in tradional forms.

All the best,
Jim

fernando · 24th March 2011, 06:58 PM

Thanks a lot for your input, Gentlemen.
Jim, i am much obliged for you having focused my (and others) eyes into the (micro) composition of genuine shagreen on the grip cover of this sword.
It is indeed amazing that one thinks that the (re)source of 'prepared' shagreen appeared after actual ray (+shark) skin, whereas this method appeared afterwards.
On the other hand, while ray skin was used mainly for anti slippery purposes, original shagreen was also used for embelishment purposes, such as box and other object outer shells and also, and not less popular, for book bidings. I have read in the web a PDF article where shagreen binding was seen in 1734 in a Portuguese miniature almanach.
I have also gone into the ethimo/semantic area, learning that shagreen apparently comes from the Turc 'çagri' and refers to the horse croup, from where raw hide was originaly used for the preparation of the discussed material.
The translated term in portuguese is 'chagrem', althoug the galicism 'chagrin' is much more widely used.
Giving wings to imagination, would one find any connection between ray skin having been widely used in Japanese sword grips and the silver details of this sword reminding menuki decorations, as suggested by Mark? I will give a thought to that.
Thinking about replicating the missing silver nails, its shape diversity is so exquisite, that i hesitate before going into such adventure. I will have to see how the smith himself reacts.

fernando · 28th March 2011, 12:04 PM

For those with interest in more technical data ... like Chris Evans:

Blade length: 82 cms.
Blade thickness at forte: 6 mm.
Blade with at forte: 34 mm.
Quillons extension: 28,5 cms.
Cup width: 13 cms.
Total length:97 cms.
Ponit of balance (from quillons): 12 cms.
Weight: 912 grs.

Chris Evans · 29th March 2011, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

For those with interest in more technical data ... like Chris Evans:

Ponit of balance (from quillons): 12 cms.

Much appreciated Fernando.

Just to make sure, the POB is from the quillons and not the where the cup meets the blade?

As I said in my PM, I am very, very envious.

Cheers
Chris

fernando · 29th March 2011, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Much appreciated Fernando.

Just to make sure, the POB is from the quillons and not the where the cup meets the blade?

As I said in my PM, I am very, very envious.

Cheers
Chris

Yes Chris, from the quillons ... as adviced

.
Thanks much for your interest ... and envy

.

Chris Evans · 30th March 2011, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Yes Chris, from the quillons ... as adviced

.
Thanks much for your interest ... and envy

.

Enjoy!

Cheers
Chris

23rd March 2011, 06:56 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	Ahhh, the narwhale worked as planned! Actually, I really didn't intend to steer attention away from this great sword. Last comment on the claimore, though. There was a great example with apparent age in an old Man-at-Arms magazine from the 90's. Impressive piece. Now, back to this rapier. I am amazed once again with seeing details of the nails in the hilt. Truly, their design reminds me of Japanese menuki and someone went to a lot of trouble artistically to create them. They are just beautiful and their shapes appear to represent objects, at least symbolicly, just as Japanese sword furniture would have (I used to have an old wak with fuchi/menuki showing koi eating salmon roe, lily pads, cherry blossoms, etc, with gold relief. I miss them sometimes-sigh). Fernando, I agree with you that if you wish to replace them, you may want to inlist the work of a jeweler. An incredible sword. Now that you have this one, you can just send me one of your other plainer types ( ) Last edited by M ELEY; 23rd March 2011 at 07:08 AM.

23rd March 2011, 04:27 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,587	Yes Capt. Mark, the narwhal 'red herring' and it would seem the Scots would naturally have had an affinity for this horn as thier national arms are supported heraldically by flanking unicorns Carl, Im really glad you posted your bilbo here! It is really a great example, and good to see these Spanish Colonial weapons becoming so well represented here. These were of course military swords, but not really a particular regimental pattern. The dates that are applied to these swords such as '1728' were simply dates referring to regulamentos (if I recall correctly) of the years 1728 and 1768 where military inspections were emplaced to record the state of units and presidios at the time. Swords with these traditionally styled hilts were in use widely and over extremely long periods of time, especially on the frontiers. Your blade is well placed here as it corresponds nicely to Fernando's cuphilt and is also of the somewhat triangularly elongated form, yet with the typical hexagonal cross section of the later dragoon blades. The initials N M N on the blade are not for a maker but actually would probably be an acronym for a religious invocation such as those seen on much earlier sword blades, again a tradition long held and carried forward from such sacredotal inscriptions. Examples known from earlier are i.e. N E M, = Nomen Eternis Nomen and N O M , =Nomen Omnipotentis Nomen. While cuphilts such as Fernando's were apparantly a favored horsemans weapon, the bilbos seem to have been often associated with infantry officers of line regiments in most cases I have seen. There seem to be a number of examples from Cuba and units in the Spanish holdings in Florida and Louisiana. The differences between rapier and bilbo as seen here are in my view purely semantical, as these are both actually 'arming swords' which reflect earlier styles of rapier in tradional forms. All the best, Jim

24th March 2011, 06:58 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thanks a lot for your input, Gentlemen. Jim, i am much obliged for you having focused my (and others) eyes into the (micro) composition of genuine shagreen on the grip cover of this sword. It is indeed amazing that one thinks that the (re)source of 'prepared' shagreen appeared after actual ray (+shark) skin, whereas this method appeared afterwards. On the other hand, while ray skin was used mainly for anti slippery purposes, original shagreen was also used for embelishment purposes, such as box and other object outer shells and also, and not less popular, for book bidings. I have read in the web a PDF article where shagreen binding was seen in 1734 in a Portuguese miniature almanach. I have also gone into the ethimo/semantic area, learning that shagreen apparently comes from the Turc 'çagri' and refers to the horse croup, from where raw hide was originaly used for the preparation of the discussed material. The translated term in portuguese is 'chagrem', althoug the galicism 'chagrin' is much more widely used. Giving wings to imagination, would one find any connection between ray skin having been widely used in Japanese sword grips and the silver details of this sword reminding menuki decorations, as suggested by Mark? I will give a thought to that. Thinking about replicating the missing silver nails, its shape diversity is so exquisite, that i hesitate before going into such adventure. I will have to see how the smith himself reacts.

28th March 2011, 12:04 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	For those with interest in more technical data ... like Chris Evans: Blade length: 82 cms. Blade thickness at forte: 6 mm. Blade with at forte: 34 mm. Quillons extension: 28,5 cms. Cup width: 13 cms. Total length:97 cms. Ponit of balance (from quillons): 12 cms. Weight: 912 grs.