A cup hilt sword for coments.

Jim McDougall · 19th March 2011, 08:09 PM

Ok Nando! You know I cant resist Spanish Colonial, and cuphilts get me weak in the knees

This example is really amazing, and I have never seen shagreen on anything Spanish Colonial. I feel compelled to add some observations so I must apologize in advance and hope it will not stall the thread.

This is as you have already noted, the strictly business type of cuphilt used on the frontiers of New Spain in the latter 18th century and actually probably well into the 19th. The Peninsular gentry of these regions still retained thier tradition and deep pride in thier noble heritage, and maintained thier fascination with fashions and weapons often considered obsolete elsewhere.
These heavy versions of the cuphilt were more 'arming swords' of course than rapiers, and carried double edged blades usually of hexagonal cross section which are believed to have been produced in Solingen for export to Spains New World colonies.
While it has been well established that the so called 'Spanish motto' noted on this blade, has been around far earlier than the period of these blades, c.1770s, it was indeed popularized largely by the volume of these blades that exist.

Getting to the intriguing grip on this, while it appears to be 'rayskin' which refers to the pearled rayfish, as used and well known on Oriental weapons, and even similar to Tatar swords of the 17th century (termed 'czeczuga' =small sturgeon, Ostrowski, 1979, p.232).....this may be something different.

Apparantly this fashionable covering was popularized in Europe by a master leatherworker in the court of Louis XV named Jean-Claude Galluchat (d.1774). It is noted that while possibly actual shagreen may have been used in cases, it was sometimes imitated by placing embedding seeds over untreated horse skin and covering with soft cloth, then applying pressure. The skin was then dyed from the reverse, often with green dye. This style became extremely popular with French aristocracy in the latter part of the 18th century.

I am wondering if perhaps this sword, the type known widely popular in Spains colonies in Florida and Cuba as well as South America, might have been mounted accordingly using this fashionable material. Obviously there was considerable contact between French and Spanish trade in the Gulf as well as throughout these regions in these times, so this may account for this extremely rare combination in this example.

Attached box covered in 'Galuchat', the term used for this style.

Beautiful piece Nando!!!

Best regards,
Jim

fernando · 19th March 2011, 09:05 PM

At last you show up, man

.
But i am learning the trick; everytime i wish you to come around, i post a cup hilt sword

Thank you so much for the treatise.
However you know how irreverent i am, daring to (try and) oppose some of your brilliant reasoning, even if it is only for sports sake

.
But let me first receive the sword and have a good look at it, to come back here with my humble position on the grip covering material ... among other things.
Keep well, Jim cow boy

.

Jim McDougall · 19th March 2011, 10:56 PM

Ok ya rascal!!! You do absolutely know my weaknesses and a cuphilt will always drag me out of retirement!!!!

Not irreverant Nando, and I always look forward to opposition with the ideas and observations I throw out there,thats why I do it even if not totally sure of whether right or wrong, its how I learn...actually its how we all learn.
Thats why discussions are so important !

When you examine the sword we can have a better view of what the material is, and I know that it is quite likely that this might not be this galuchat material...it may indeed be actual shagreen. There was a great deal of interest in the Orient in the 18th century, and perhaps this rayskin could have been obtained in trade. I wanted to be sure that all options were out there pending your close examination. Whatever the case, this is an absolutely magnificent piece, and another important milestone in the study of these Spanish Colonial items. Nicely done!! and thank you my friend,

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 22nd March 2011, 07:27 AM

I'm right there with you, Jim and 'Nando, on these magnificent swords. Sorry to be a late-comer, have been away for a bit. What a beautiful cup-hilt! I'm always amazed at how you find these pieces, my friend. I would kill to have one (well, maybe just maim-

). I've never seen this form of grip material or patterning before on one of these. Jim, I've never heard of this practice of making fake shagreen. Fascinating process, but I wonder why they make it so complicated? Rayskin seemed common enough on other Euro pieces of the times. In any case, I'm glad you spoke of it, as I'll file the info away for future reference.
The "nails" in the grip seem very interesting to me and seem to have an oriental look to me. As Jim pointed out, I know that there was a great interest of such things during this time period. Even the flat pommel strikes me as different from the typical cup-hilt. In any case, what a fine sword!
Soooo, now we know the trick to elicit a response from Jim. Start off with a pic of a nice cup-hilt before segueing to another subject! So, it will be like 'thanks for responding, Jim. Now, your opinion on narwhale tusks used on Claimore hilts!'

Jim McDougall · 22nd March 2011, 05:02 PM

Yay, Capt. Mark!!! Thank you for coming in, I thought I had as usual, sent this thread to Davey Jones locker. So I see you note that you and Nando have my mark, and draw me out of the shadows with a pretty cuphilt

For you, the mention of nautical or Spanish Colonial will bring you in....now if we could figure as much for the hoardes lurking out there, and what it will take to get them onboard.

What!!! narwhal tusks on claymore hilts!!! ????? Auugghhhh! off again, hoist the mainsail!!!

All the best,
Jim

fernando · 22nd March 2011, 05:25 PM

Hi Cap'n Mark,
Thanks for coming aboard ... better late than ever

.

I see that the trick to bring you around is coming here to ask people their opinion on narwhale tusks used on Claimore hilts!

.

Concerning how i find these pieces ... well, at specialized shops and websites; so they are not cheap at all. Each one of them costs more than a full load of powder kegs

.

The grip silver nails; what i find more amazing in them, is that practicaly each one of them has a different shape.
I am thinking of asking my jewelry shop owner friend to have his smith to replicate (at least some of) the missing units.

Now Jim, are these pictures good enough to figure out what the grip cover material is? I confess i am amazed at the 'asterisk' shape of the worn 'bulbs'; would this be normal in ray skin ?

I wonder, as i find it admitable, that this hilt attitude was a later embelishment to this sword but, full of silver details as it is, it certainly belonged to an owner with a position higher that the common rank and file ... don't you guys agree?

Concerning this sword's age, can't you 'make it' a bit earlier ... to come close to seller's assumption: circa 1700?

Ah, something i almost forgot to mention; atypically, the inscription on the blade, instead of having engraved half of the sentence in each face, has the full phrase in both sides, in a double row manner.

.

Jim McDougall · 22nd March 2011, 11:18 PM

Hi Nando,
This is the beauty of discussion, and why it means so much, at least to me, to have questions asked regarding text in my posts. I learn by researching and posting what I have learned, and in many instances my wording can be unclear. Also, often I may make comment without rechecking original sources, which in this case, applies to the hilt style on this cuphilt.

I rechecked " Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821" (Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain, 1972) where one of these 'colonial' cuphilts appears (p.73, plate 130) and is indeed shown as c.1700. In the example shown, which was owned by Harold Peterson, the knucklebow is squared rather than curved, and there are minimal differences in the quillon terminals and pommel collar. These variations are so slight that they should be deemed inconsequential, and as with most colonial weapons, the 1700 date somewhat arbitrary.

Going to the grip material, I should clarify that the term 'shagreen' was originally used for rough untanned rawhide or leather often from a horses back. By the late 17th century and into the 18th the term had become applied to the use of sharkskin or rayskin, as had become known from Oriental weapons. While sharkskin is noted along with the rayskin, they are actually noticeably different and our focus is on the rayskin (probably the pearled ray, Hypolophus Sepheri) which has calcified papillae (look like pearls or domed pustules).

In rereading material, it seems that there was an earlier practice of creating faux rayskin by embedding plant seeds in the untreated horsehide while soft and trampling upon it, creating the papillaed effect. Presumably by 'earlier' this would suggest the end of the 17th century. By latter in the 18th century the use of rayskin and dying it from the back in green dye was popularized by Galuchat as previously noted.

The 'starburst' effect on these 'pearled' features on this grip, suggest that they have had force, such as crushing, effected upon them. The absence of the domes in some places suggest that possibly, if these were created by seeds, many had fallen away during the process. Since as mentioned, this process was an 'earlier' one, this may support the late 17th c. early 18th date we are seeking.

Also, regarding the 'Spanish motto' NO ME SAQUES SIN RAZON
NO ME ENVAYNES SIN HONOR
or its variations, this one listed in the Wallace Collection A641, and describing the blade as German late 17th-early 18th century. The author, Sir James Mann (1962) notes further in text that this motto occurs on blades c,1770 traded by P.Knecht in Solingen. This was a blade trading family, not makers, and presumably these were the 'dragoon' type blades I had noted earlier, and as described in Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain (op. cit.).

Since the blade is triangularly elongated, though also broadsword, it conforms more to earlier type blades, again supporting the earlier c.1700 date. It is my impression as well from the references in Wallace Collection, that the motto doublet appears in full with both lines on the blade face, rather than each line on opposite sides on the c.1770 dragoon blades.

I think these views will better support the earlier date and nature of this cuphilt which I consider a magnificent example of these outstanding and rugged examples of Spanish cuphilt from the New Spain frontiers.

Mark, as for the use of narwhal on the baskethilts, I would at this point consider such examples to be anomalies, but certainly well placed and desirable. Since this highly storied material was well known through the North Atlantic, especially with the Norse, I cannot see why it would not have been used for extremely high end examples of Scottish sword. The accompanying lore and myth associating these of course was maintained with that of the unicorn until very late times, which by that time had become more tradition than literal acceptance of myth. I'd really like to see examples of these Scottish swords with such hilts though!!!

All best regards,
Jim

Carl M · 23rd March 2011, 04:18 AM

That is a beautiful sword! Where did you find it?

It seems to be a gray area between bilbo and rapier. The blade has a sharp taper, yet it is very broad. Speaking of bilbos, I just posted a thread that hasn't appeared yet on a bilbo I recently purchased at auction. I think it is a regimental pattern.

M ELEY · 23rd March 2011, 06:56 AM

Ahhh, the narwhale worked as planned! Actually, I really didn't intend to steer attention away from this great sword. Last comment on the claimore, though. There was a great example with apparent age in an old Man-at-Arms magazine from the 90's. Impressive piece.

Now, back to this rapier. I am amazed once again with seeing details of the nails in the hilt. Truly, their design reminds me of Japanese menuki and someone went to a lot of trouble artistically to create them. They are just beautiful and their shapes appear to represent objects, at least symbolicly, just as Japanese sword furniture would have (I used to have an old wak with fuchi/menuki showing koi eating salmon roe, lily pads, cherry blossoms, etc, with gold relief. I miss them sometimes-sigh). Fernando, I agree with you that if you wish to replace them, you may want to inlist the work of a jeweler. An incredible sword. Now that you have this one, you can just send me one of your other plainer types (

)

19th March 2011, 08:09 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Ok Nando! You know I cant resist Spanish Colonial, and cuphilts get me weak in the knees This example is really amazing, and I have never seen shagreen on anything Spanish Colonial. I feel compelled to add some observations so I must apologize in advance and hope it will not stall the thread. This is as you have already noted, the strictly business type of cuphilt used on the frontiers of New Spain in the latter 18th century and actually probably well into the 19th. The Peninsular gentry of these regions still retained thier tradition and deep pride in thier noble heritage, and maintained thier fascination with fashions and weapons often considered obsolete elsewhere. These heavy versions of the cuphilt were more 'arming swords' of course than rapiers, and carried double edged blades usually of hexagonal cross section which are believed to have been produced in Solingen for export to Spains New World colonies. While it has been well established that the so called 'Spanish motto' noted on this blade, has been around far earlier than the period of these blades, c.1770s, it was indeed popularized largely by the volume of these blades that exist. Getting to the intriguing grip on this, while it appears to be 'rayskin' which refers to the pearled rayfish, as used and well known on Oriental weapons, and even similar to Tatar swords of the 17th century (termed 'czeczuga' =small sturgeon, Ostrowski, 1979, p.232).....this may be something different. Apparantly this fashionable covering was popularized in Europe by a master leatherworker in the court of Louis XV named Jean-Claude Galluchat (d.1774). It is noted that while possibly actual shagreen may have been used in cases, it was sometimes imitated by placing embedding seeds over untreated horse skin and covering with soft cloth, then applying pressure. The skin was then dyed from the reverse, often with green dye. This style became extremely popular with French aristocracy in the latter part of the 18th century. I am wondering if perhaps this sword, the type known widely popular in Spains colonies in Florida and Cuba as well as South America, might have been mounted accordingly using this fashionable material. Obviously there was considerable contact between French and Spanish trade in the Gulf as well as throughout these regions in these times, so this may account for this extremely rare combination in this example. Attached box covered in 'Galuchat', the term used for this style. Beautiful piece Nando!!! Best regards, Jim Attached Images

22nd March 2011, 07:27 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Spanish rapiers...ahh I'm right there with you, Jim and 'Nando, on these magnificent swords. Sorry to be a late-comer, have been away for a bit. What a beautiful cup-hilt! I'm always amazed at how you find these pieces, my friend. I would kill to have one (well, maybe just maim- ). I've never seen this form of grip material or patterning before on one of these. Jim, I've never heard of this practice of making fake shagreen. Fascinating process, but I wonder why they make it so complicated? Rayskin seemed common enough on other Euro pieces of the times. In any case, I'm glad you spoke of it, as I'll file the info away for future reference. The "nails" in the grip seem very interesting to me and seem to have an oriental look to me. As Jim pointed out, I know that there was a great interest of such things during this time period. Even the flat pommel strikes me as different from the typical cup-hilt. In any case, what a fine sword! Soooo, now we know the trick to elicit a response from Jim. Start off with a pic of a nice cup-hilt before segueing to another subject! So, it will be like 'thanks for responding, Jim. Now, your opinion on narwhale tusks used on Claimore hilts!' Last edited by M ELEY; 22nd March 2011 at 07:53 AM.

22nd March 2011, 05:25 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Cap'n Mark, Thanks for coming aboard ... better late than ever . I see that the trick to bring you around is coming here to ask people their opinion on narwhale tusks used on Claimore hilts! . Concerning how i find these pieces ... well, at specialized shops and websites; so they are not cheap at all. Each one of them costs more than a full load of powder kegs . The grip silver nails; what i find more amazing in them, is that practicaly each one of them has a different shape. I am thinking of asking my jewelry shop owner friend to have his smith to replicate (at least some of) the missing units. Now Jim, are these pictures good enough to figure out what the grip cover material is? I confess i am amazed at the 'asterisk' shape of the worn 'bulbs'; would this be normal in ray skin ? I wonder, as i find it admitable, that this hilt attitude was a later embelishment to this sword but, full of silver details as it is, it certainly belonged to an owner with a position higher that the common rank and file ... don't you guys agree? Concerning this sword's age, can't you 'make it' a bit earlier ... to come close to seller's assumption: circa 1700? Ah, something i almost forgot to mention; atypically, the inscription on the blade, instead of having engraved half of the sentence in each face, has the full phrase in both sides, in a double row manner. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 22nd March 2011 at 05:40 PM.

23rd March 2011, 06:56 AM	#9
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Ahhh, the narwhale worked as planned! Actually, I really didn't intend to steer attention away from this great sword. Last comment on the claimore, though. There was a great example with apparent age in an old Man-at-Arms magazine from the 90's. Impressive piece. Now, back to this rapier. I am amazed once again with seeing details of the nails in the hilt. Truly, their design reminds me of Japanese menuki and someone went to a lot of trouble artistically to create them. They are just beautiful and their shapes appear to represent objects, at least symbolicly, just as Japanese sword furniture would have (I used to have an old wak with fuchi/menuki showing koi eating salmon roe, lily pads, cherry blossoms, etc, with gold relief. I miss them sometimes-sigh). Fernando, I agree with you that if you wish to replace them, you may want to inlist the work of a jeweler. An incredible sword. Now that you have this one, you can just send me one of your other plainer types ( ) Last edited by M ELEY; 23rd March 2011 at 07:08 AM.

19th March 2011, 09:05 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	At last you show up, man . But i am learning the trick; everytime i wish you to come around, i post a cup hilt sword Thank you so much for the treatise. However you know how irreverent i am, daring to (try and) oppose some of your brilliant reasoning, even if it is only for sports sake . But let me first receive the sword and have a good look at it, to come back here with my humble position on the grip covering material ... among other things. Keep well, Jim cow boy .

19th March 2011, 10:56 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Ok ya rascal!!! You do absolutely know my weaknesses and a cuphilt will always drag me out of retirement!!!! Not irreverant Nando, and I always look forward to opposition with the ideas and observations I throw out there,thats why I do it even if not totally sure of whether right or wrong, its how I learn...actually its how we all learn. Thats why discussions are so important ! When you examine the sword we can have a better view of what the material is, and I know that it is quite likely that this might not be this galuchat material...it may indeed be actual shagreen. There was a great deal of interest in the Orient in the 18th century, and perhaps this rayskin could have been obtained in trade. I wanted to be sure that all options were out there pending your close examination. Whatever the case, this is an absolutely magnificent piece, and another important milestone in the study of these Spanish Colonial items. Nicely done!! and thank you my friend, All the best, Jim

22nd March 2011, 05:02 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Yay, Capt. Mark!!! Thank you for coming in, I thought I had as usual, sent this thread to Davey Jones locker. So I see you note that you and Nando have my mark, and draw me out of the shadows with a pretty cuphilt For you, the mention of nautical or Spanish Colonial will bring you in....now if we could figure as much for the hoardes lurking out there, and what it will take to get them onboard. What!!! narwhal tusks on claymore hilts!!! ????? Auugghhhh! off again, hoist the mainsail!!! All the best, Jim

22nd March 2011, 11:18 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Nando, This is the beauty of discussion, and why it means so much, at least to me, to have questions asked regarding text in my posts. I learn by researching and posting what I have learned, and in many instances my wording can be unclear. Also, often I may make comment without rechecking original sources, which in this case, applies to the hilt style on this cuphilt. I rechecked " Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821" (Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain, 1972) where one of these 'colonial' cuphilts appears (p.73, plate 130) and is indeed shown as c.1700. In the example shown, which was owned by Harold Peterson, the knucklebow is squared rather than curved, and there are minimal differences in the quillon terminals and pommel collar. These variations are so slight that they should be deemed inconsequential, and as with most colonial weapons, the 1700 date somewhat arbitrary. Going to the grip material, I should clarify that the term 'shagreen' was originally used for rough untanned rawhide or leather often from a horses back. By the late 17th century and into the 18th the term had become applied to the use of sharkskin or rayskin, as had become known from Oriental weapons. While sharkskin is noted along with the rayskin, they are actually noticeably different and our focus is on the rayskin (probably the pearled ray, Hypolophus Sepheri) which has calcified papillae (look like pearls or domed pustules). In rereading material, it seems that there was an earlier practice of creating faux rayskin by embedding plant seeds in the untreated horsehide while soft and trampling upon it, creating the papillaed effect. Presumably by 'earlier' this would suggest the end of the 17th century. By latter in the 18th century the use of rayskin and dying it from the back in green dye was popularized by Galuchat as previously noted. The 'starburst' effect on these 'pearled' features on this grip, suggest that they have had force, such as crushing, effected upon them. The absence of the domes in some places suggest that possibly, if these were created by seeds, many had fallen away during the process. Since as mentioned, this process was an 'earlier' one, this may support the late 17th c. early 18th date we are seeking. Also, regarding the 'Spanish motto' NO ME SAQUES SIN RAZON NO ME ENVAYNES SIN HONOR or its variations, this one listed in the Wallace Collection A641, and describing the blade as German late 17th-early 18th century. The author, Sir James Mann (1962) notes further in text that this motto occurs on blades c,1770 traded by P.Knecht in Solingen. This was a blade trading family, not makers, and presumably these were the 'dragoon' type blades I had noted earlier, and as described in Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain (op. cit.). Since the blade is triangularly elongated, though also broadsword, it conforms more to earlier type blades, again supporting the earlier c.1700 date. It is my impression as well from the references in Wallace Collection, that the motto doublet appears in full with both lines on the blade face, rather than each line on opposite sides on the c.1770 dragoon blades. I think these views will better support the earlier date and nature of this cuphilt which I consider a magnificent example of these outstanding and rugged examples of Spanish cuphilt from the New Spain frontiers. Mark, as for the use of narwhal on the baskethilts, I would at this point consider such examples to be anomalies, but certainly well placed and desirable. Since this highly storied material was well known through the North Atlantic, especially with the Norse, I cannot see why it would not have been used for extremely high end examples of Scottish sword. The accompanying lore and myth associating these of course was maintained with that of the unicorn until very late times, which by that time had become more tradition than literal acceptance of myth. I'd really like to see examples of these Scottish swords with such hilts though!!! All best regards, Jim

23rd March 2011, 04:18 AM	#8
Carl M Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 20	That is a beautiful sword! Where did you find it? It seems to be a gray area between bilbo and rapier. The blade has a sharp taper, yet it is very broad. Speaking of bilbos, I just posted a thread that hasn't appeared yet on a bilbo I recently purchased at auction. I think it is a regimental pattern.