Scale armor

A Senefelder · 15th March 2011, 12:59 PM

Cole you'll have to forgive me, it was about 20 years ago ( my sisters graduation from college where Mr. Rogers was the commencement speaker ) so I do not recall the name of the gallery. It was a nice little art gallery in Baltimore and thier collection of arms and armour at that time was in thier basement which at that time was set up like a castle complete with stonework and stone spiral staircase to access it IIRC.

pbleed · 16th March 2011, 02:34 AM

Dear Friends,
cole and I had a couple of off line exchanges. Perhaps some on the forum will find them of interest
Thanks very much your message. I appreciate that Alan Senenfelder was kind enough to pass it along to you. Indeed, thanks to the good offices of Madelein Roberg, we have a very good analysis of the fibers and fabrics of the scale armor we are studying.
For now, let me pass along some summary information
1. Your observations on the structure of the armor are very good. We will present a summary of the structure in our final report of the armor.
2. The Fabric Substrate
What you call the " The Fabric Substrate " is composed of irregular, undyed "bast fiber"
3. The "Tape"
The tape is twill woven cotton with a blue dyed warp element. In use, this tape was doubled and the scales are attached by rivets . My colleague Doug Scott found a reference to what seems to be very similar tape used as "lace" on the British army uniforms of "other ranks" of War of 1812.
The main thread used to attach the riveted tapes to the "fabric substrate" is thick, doubled bast fiber
4 The fabric that you call the "lining" is a bit problematical. It may indeed, have been a lining that reached entirely across the face opposite of the scale.
It is twill-woven cotton
5. The "Top"
The fabric along the front neckline of the armor is undyed bast fiber.
6. Now, let me ask you to look once again at the brass spanner nuts that hold the slot-headed screws at either side of the armor. Senenfeld sees that as potentially rather old. And he may be right, but I see it as a well machined bit of hardware. I could see it as very 19th century. I am also not finding very much literature on the chronology of nuts and bolts. Can you share any expertise?

A Senefelder · 16th March 2011, 01:48 PM

Peter, the timing of your posting this has been immaculate. Cole will be begining construction on a scale garment fairly soon after he picks up the scales i've made for him and the opportunity to view the construction of this piece will be of great help i'm sure.

ncioran · 17th March 2011, 01:30 PM

Allan,

I couldn't agree more, thanks very much to both you and Peter!

Cole

VANDOO · 24th March 2011, 07:49 PM

I HAD A COUPLE OF FRIENDS WHO MAKE AND COLLECT ARMOR TAKE A LOOK AS I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ARMOR. UNFORTUNATELY NEITHER ONE IS A MEMBER SO COULD NOT POST.
THEY SAID IT APPEARED SIMILAR TO THE POLISH WINGED HORSEMAN ARMOR PERHAPS A MANTLE TO COVER THE REGION OF THE SHOULDER. CIRCA 1650 TO 1700. SO YOU MIGHT SEARCH THE FORUM AS THIS WAS DISCUSSED IN THE PAST AND GOOGLE IT. AT LEAST IT GIVES YOU A DIRECTION IN WHICH TO SEARCH. THEY BOTH AGREED IT WAS NOT MADE FOR THEATRICAL OR LODGE USE BUT AUTHENTIC ARMOR THAT WAS WELL AND PROPERLY MADE.

Lee · 8th May 2011, 11:38 PM

Received from Josh:

I wanted to register in order to post a bit of information regarding a recent topic that has been posted on your board, if nobody else has yet posted it.

I believe that the piece of scale armour in the photos there might be a fragment of the armour of a Comanche war chief active in the 19th century called "Iron Jacket."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Jacket

Note the line that reads: "The Rangers broke up his coat of mail and kept the shingles for souvenirs."

Jim McDougall · 9th May 2011, 03:24 PM

It always makes me smile when whispers from the 'lurking hordes' come in

Here is distinct evidence that there is sound knowledge among them, and how unfortunate it is that typically they do not post. In this case I am grateful that an attempt to share information was made, even through 'the back door', so thank you Josh, wherever you are.

The note on 'Iron Shirt' is extremely well placed, and there are considerations that this could indeed be an element of armor worn by possibly a warrior of one of the tribes in the region it was found. The well known tales of 'Chief Iron Shirt' have been around for some time, but there are of course a number of versions, most of them envisioning him wearing the cliche' conquistador breastplate or cuirass. However, this account is remarkably accurate in detail and reveals far more about the true nature of these old Spanish items which remained with some generations of these tribes for many years.
Native American warriors are known to have worn various kinds of defensive armor mostly of rawhide in some degree, and used of course rawhide shields, but there are considerably limited instances of use of this kind of armor. In most cases it would seem these were likely traded from Comanchero traders in regions of New Mexico and West Texas from old Spanish resources. This particular mantle, though the 'jury is still out' appears to be at least of early Spanish components, and there is a distinct possibility of being worn by a warrior.

Chief Iron Shirt incidentally was apparantly brought down with a high caliber rifle where the shot entered from his side circumventing the armor which had brought him such acclaim.

16th March 2011, 02:34 AM	#2
pbleed Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Little Rock, Arkansas Posts: 88	responses to Cole's questions Dear Friends, cole and I had a couple of off line exchanges. Perhaps some on the forum will find them of interest Thanks very much your message. I appreciate that Alan Senenfelder was kind enough to pass it along to you. Indeed, thanks to the good offices of Madelein Roberg, we have a very good analysis of the fibers and fabrics of the scale armor we are studying. For now, let me pass along some summary information 1. Your observations on the structure of the armor are very good. We will present a summary of the structure in our final report of the armor. 2. The Fabric Substrate What you call the " The Fabric Substrate " is composed of irregular, undyed "bast fiber" 3. The "Tape" The tape is twill woven cotton with a blue dyed warp element. In use, this tape was doubled and the scales are attached by rivets . My colleague Doug Scott found a reference to what seems to be very similar tape used as "lace" on the British army uniforms of "other ranks" of War of 1812. The main thread used to attach the riveted tapes to the "fabric substrate" is thick, doubled bast fiber 4 The fabric that you call the "lining" is a bit problematical. It may indeed, have been a lining that reached entirely across the face opposite of the scale. It is twill-woven cotton 5. The "Top" The fabric along the front neckline of the armor is undyed bast fiber. 6. Now, let me ask you to look once again at the brass spanner nuts that hold the slot-headed screws at either side of the armor. Senenfeld sees that as potentially rather old. And he may be right, but I see it as a well machined bit of hardware. I could see it as very 19th century. I am also not finding very much literature on the chronology of nuts and bolts. Can you share any expertise?

8th May 2011, 11:38 PM	#6
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 937	A suggestion from a 'lurker" Received from Josh: I wanted to register in order to post a bit of information regarding a recent topic that has been posted on your board, if nobody else has yet posted it. I believe that the piece of scale armour in the photos there might be a fragment of the armour of a Comanche war chief active in the 19th century called "Iron Jacket." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Jacket Note the line that reads: "The Rangers broke up his coat of mail and kept the shingles for souvenirs."

15th March 2011, 12:59 PM	#1
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	Cole you'll have to forgive me, it was about 20 years ago ( my sisters graduation from college where Mr. Rogers was the commencement speaker ) so I do not recall the name of the gallery. It was a nice little art gallery in Baltimore and thier collection of arms and armour at that time was in thier basement which at that time was set up like a castle complete with stonework and stone spiral staircase to access it IIRC.

16th March 2011, 01:48 PM	#3
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	Peter, the timing of your posting this has been immaculate. Cole will be begining construction on a scale garment fairly soon after he picks up the scales i've made for him and the opportunity to view the construction of this piece will be of great help i'm sure.

17th March 2011, 01:30 PM	#4
ncioran Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 3	Allan, I couldn't agree more, thanks very much to both you and Peter! Cole

24th March 2011, 07:49 PM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I HAD A COUPLE OF FRIENDS WHO MAKE AND COLLECT ARMOR TAKE A LOOK AS I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ARMOR. UNFORTUNATELY NEITHER ONE IS A MEMBER SO COULD NOT POST. THEY SAID IT APPEARED SIMILAR TO THE POLISH WINGED HORSEMAN ARMOR PERHAPS A MANTLE TO COVER THE REGION OF THE SHOULDER. CIRCA 1650 TO 1700. SO YOU MIGHT SEARCH THE FORUM AS THIS WAS DISCUSSED IN THE PAST AND GOOGLE IT. AT LEAST IT GIVES YOU A DIRECTION IN WHICH TO SEARCH. THEY BOTH AGREED IT WAS NOT MADE FOR THEATRICAL OR LODGE USE BUT AUTHENTIC ARMOR THAT WAS WELL AND PROPERLY MADE.

9th May 2011, 03:24 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	It always makes me smile when whispers from the 'lurking hordes' come in Here is distinct evidence that there is sound knowledge among them, and how unfortunate it is that typically they do not post. In this case I am grateful that an attempt to share information was made, even through 'the back door', so thank you Josh, wherever you are. The note on 'Iron Shirt' is extremely well placed, and there are considerations that this could indeed be an element of armor worn by possibly a warrior of one of the tribes in the region it was found. The well known tales of 'Chief Iron Shirt' have been around for some time, but there are of course a number of versions, most of them envisioning him wearing the cliche' conquistador breastplate or cuirass. However, this account is remarkably accurate in detail and reveals far more about the true nature of these old Spanish items which remained with some generations of these tribes for many years. Native American warriors are known to have worn various kinds of defensive armor mostly of rawhide in some degree, and used of course rawhide shields, but there are considerably limited instances of use of this kind of armor. In most cases it would seem these were likely traded from Comanchero traders in regions of New Mexico and West Texas from old Spanish resources. This particular mantle, though the 'jury is still out' appears to be at least of early Spanish components, and there is a distinct possibility of being worn by a warrior. Chief Iron Shirt incidentally was apparantly brought down with a high caliber rifle where the shot entered from his side circumventing the armor which had brought him such acclaim.