A warrior's keris

Mick · 20th December 2004, 07:48 PM

Ronpakis

Using the Bugis keris is easier if you have the handle mounted properly. The proper mounting is with the handle is facing 90 degrees from the plane of the blade. That is turned out when the keris is carried on the body not to the front or rear as it often is in storage do to space limitations. When the handle is installed correctly and the keris is drawn, the handle fits in your hand like a pistol grip. The thumb and forfinger pinch the blade on both sides of the front to direct the strike while the palm of the hand against the back of the grip allows you to put power into the strike with a shove.

nechesh · 20th December 2004, 10:54 PM

Well Ronpakis, if you are not missing my point you are, at least, missing the correct spelling of my name.

Obviously a keris of the "absolut highest rank, with gold, gems, etc" is NOT one that is meant for combat. To use this keris to make your point doesn't work for me. And not all Bali hulu are excessively large. Try one of the simpler hilt, like the type that has cord or hair wrapping on the grip. And pitch is no last minute improv used in spirit of the moment. It has been known and used as an excellent adhesive in the area for centuries. There are different types of keris for people in all walks of life. Jewel encrusted gold keris for royalty, keris to help the crops grow for farmers, keris for prosperity for the merchant, keris of deep mystical significance for the dukun and yes, keris for combat for the warrior. You don't have to believe it, but you might want to consider it.

As for your thought that my shortened blade may have been cut down due to corrosion, well, it's possible, but there is not a spot of corrosion or rust anywhere on the remaining blade and judging from the blade itself, i would guess it lost a good 4-5 inches, not just a tip. It is about 12" now, but it's meaty and was probably once 16-17 in. It's sharp and could easily punch a hole into the side of your car. An edged weapon doesn't need to be a slasher to be an effective killer.
Obviously the Dutch did not make keris for the locals they pitted against each other, they would use there own, and of course many other types of edged weapons were used and probably preferred. But i don't see your point in this statement.
And i must agree with Blu and Mick, you are obviously not holding your Bugis keris correctly if you find it clumsy, but if you follow Henk's instructions, with a little practice you should be able to defend yourself quite well. Have a very Blessed Solstice.

Raja Muda · 21st December 2004, 05:10 AM

Greetings gentlemen and a happy solstice to you too Neschech,
I've been following the rest of the thread with interest, especially the long debate on whether the keris remains a combat weapon or is simply a symbolic, talismanic cultural object.
Perhaps if we look at it from the Malay and maybe Bugis perspective, the keris is still seen primarily as a weapon with an added talismanic function.
If the number of perguruan silat or martial arts school that still teach keris fighting techniques is anything to go by, then, this might offer some clue to how widespread the use of the keris was as a weapon, at least in the Malay states of the peninsula and Sumatera.
Strange thing is, more emphasis is given by some schools to keris techniques than say that of parang, klewang etc, other more efficient hand weapons.
So, is keris a weapon of last resort? Maybe so. But the amount of training needed before a warrior can start wielding a keris effictively and the vast number of techniques taught speaks volumes of the place of the keris in the Malay martial arts world.
One the other side of the coin, from my conversations with a silat instructor, I gathered that very few Javanese perguruans still employ the keris in their combat techniques. Perhaps the Javanese may prefer other bladed weapons but that doesn't mean they've dispensed with the keris totally I guess.

nechesh · 21st December 2004, 11:43 AM

Well, I'm not sure one could argue that the keris "remains" a combat weapon aside from it's use in silat training. One would hardly expect a modern day soldier to use one in war.

But it probably WAS created for this purpose originally and certainly has been used this way in it's time. It appears again and again in Malay legend as well as a combat weapon. What is one to make of the stories of Hang Tauh and the keris Taming Sari?

BluErf · 21st December 2004, 02:17 PM

Hi Ronpakis,

No problem, I'll take some pictures and post on the forum, but I think you have to wait till this weekend because I get home late at night almost everynight and I prefer to take photos with natural daylight.

Hi Nechesh,

I think we are getting a little into semantics here. I think what Raja Muda is saying is that while no one would use a keris today, we still see 'combat' kerises around. The idea of the keris being used in 'combat' is also reinforced by the amount of emphasis put into keris training for silat.

Come to think about it, I think there was a recent case of a gang fight in Singapore in which a keris, a lawi ayam and some other traditional weapons were used. Someone may have been killed in that gang fight. For a while, the keris collectors here in Singapore got a bit worried because we feared that the police would start clamping down on kerises. Fortunately, nothing of that sort happened.

ronpakis · 21st December 2004, 07:17 PM

hello nechesh and of course all the others (sorry, wasnt paying attention to the spelling

)

My point is that i believe that keris is no primarily weapon not then and of course not now. use it in need but when there is a choice try something different. (thats wat i was saying in my gold keris example) im a very stubborn guy and hard to convince of the opposite, sorry for that

. pitch is indeed a normal material to fitt a blade. many swords are fitted with it. but i see no proof in a keris wich is fitted with it to be a weapon. simply because it could be a later addition. (perhaps it is used as a weapon but does this proove its primarily function) lets say you are a bugi guy in the 18th century. war with another tribe is comming up and you will have to choose your weapons. use a dua lalan or something like it. it kills "cows" very efficient. (funeral rites)
about the dutch, i meant if the locals made keris for this purpose or did they use their "pusaka" did they made a keris to be used as a weapon to kill others fighting on dutch side or did they use ones wich are already at hands.
its just that im a practical guy i have studied a practical proffesion and have some experience in martial arts (not silat) to me it is no logical choice to take a keris and fight with it.

blu, im looking forward to your pictures but be prepared! as stated before im very stubborn

BluErf · 22nd December 2004, 02:03 PM

Its ok ronpakis. You are entitled to your opinions. The worst that can happen is that people stop responding to you.

21st December 2004, 05:10 AM	#3
Raja Muda Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 100	Keris as killing tool Greetings gentlemen and a happy solstice to you too Neschech, I've been following the rest of the thread with interest, especially the long debate on whether the keris remains a combat weapon or is simply a symbolic, talismanic cultural object. Perhaps if we look at it from the Malay and maybe Bugis perspective, the keris is still seen primarily as a weapon with an added talismanic function. If the number of perguruan silat or martial arts school that still teach keris fighting techniques is anything to go by, then, this might offer some clue to how widespread the use of the keris was as a weapon, at least in the Malay states of the peninsula and Sumatera. Strange thing is, more emphasis is given by some schools to keris techniques than say that of parang, klewang etc, other more efficient hand weapons. So, is keris a weapon of last resort? Maybe so. But the amount of training needed before a warrior can start wielding a keris effictively and the vast number of techniques taught speaks volumes of the place of the keris in the Malay martial arts world. One the other side of the coin, from my conversations with a silat instructor, I gathered that very few Javanese perguruans still employ the keris in their combat techniques. Perhaps the Javanese may prefer other bladed weapons but that doesn't mean they've dispensed with the keris totally I guess.

20th December 2004, 07:48 PM	#1
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	Ronpakis Using the Bugis keris is easier if you have the handle mounted properly. The proper mounting is with the handle is facing 90 degrees from the plane of the blade. That is turned out when the keris is carried on the body not to the front or rear as it often is in storage do to space limitations. When the handle is installed correctly and the keris is drawn, the handle fits in your hand like a pistol grip. The thumb and forfinger pinch the blade on both sides of the front to direct the strike while the palm of the hand against the back of the grip allows you to put power into the strike with a shove.

20th December 2004, 10:54 PM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well Ronpakis, if you are not missing my point you are, at least, missing the correct spelling of my name. Obviously a keris of the "absolut highest rank, with gold, gems, etc" is NOT one that is meant for combat. To use this keris to make your point doesn't work for me. And not all Bali hulu are excessively large. Try one of the simpler hilt, like the type that has cord or hair wrapping on the grip. And pitch is no last minute improv used in spirit of the moment. It has been known and used as an excellent adhesive in the area for centuries. There are different types of keris for people in all walks of life. Jewel encrusted gold keris for royalty, keris to help the crops grow for farmers, keris for prosperity for the merchant, keris of deep mystical significance for the dukun and yes, keris for combat for the warrior. You don't have to believe it, but you might want to consider it. As for your thought that my shortened blade may have been cut down due to corrosion, well, it's possible, but there is not a spot of corrosion or rust anywhere on the remaining blade and judging from the blade itself, i would guess it lost a good 4-5 inches, not just a tip. It is about 12" now, but it's meaty and was probably once 16-17 in. It's sharp and could easily punch a hole into the side of your car. An edged weapon doesn't need to be a slasher to be an effective killer. Obviously the Dutch did not make keris for the locals they pitted against each other, they would use there own, and of course many other types of edged weapons were used and probably preferred. But i don't see your point in this statement. And i must agree with Blu and Mick, you are obviously not holding your Bugis keris correctly if you find it clumsy, but if you follow Henk's instructions, with a little practice you should be able to defend yourself quite well. Have a very Blessed Solstice.

21st December 2004, 11:43 AM	#4
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well, I'm not sure one could argue that the keris "remains" a combat weapon aside from it's use in silat training. One would hardly expect a modern day soldier to use one in war. But it probably WAS created for this purpose originally and certainly has been used this way in it's time. It appears again and again in Malay legend as well as a combat weapon. What is one to make of the stories of Hang Tauh and the keris Taming Sari?

21st December 2004, 02:17 PM	#5
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hi Ronpakis, No problem, I'll take some pictures and post on the forum, but I think you have to wait till this weekend because I get home late at night almost everynight and I prefer to take photos with natural daylight. Hi Nechesh, I think we are getting a little into semantics here. I think what Raja Muda is saying is that while no one would use a keris today, we still see 'combat' kerises around. The idea of the keris being used in 'combat' is also reinforced by the amount of emphasis put into keris training for silat. Come to think about it, I think there was a recent case of a gang fight in Singapore in which a keris, a lawi ayam and some other traditional weapons were used. Someone may have been killed in that gang fight. For a while, the keris collectors here in Singapore got a bit worried because we feared that the police would start clamping down on kerises. Fortunately, nothing of that sort happened.

21st December 2004, 07:17 PM	#6
ronpakis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: netherlands Posts: 75	hello nechesh and of course all the others (sorry, wasnt paying attention to the spelling ) My point is that i believe that keris is no primarily weapon not then and of course not now. use it in need but when there is a choice try something different. (thats wat i was saying in my gold keris example) im a very stubborn guy and hard to convince of the opposite, sorry for that . pitch is indeed a normal material to fitt a blade. many swords are fitted with it. but i see no proof in a keris wich is fitted with it to be a weapon. simply because it could be a later addition. (perhaps it is used as a weapon but does this proove its primarily function) lets say you are a bugi guy in the 18th century. war with another tribe is comming up and you will have to choose your weapons. use a dua lalan or something like it. it kills "cows" very efficient. (funeral rites) about the dutch, i meant if the locals made keris for this purpose or did they use their "pusaka" did they made a keris to be used as a weapon to kill others fighting on dutch side or did they use ones wich are already at hands. its just that im a practical guy i have studied a practical proffesion and have some experience in martial arts (not silat) to me it is no logical choice to take a keris and fight with it. blu, im looking forward to your pictures but be prepared! as stated before im very stubborn

22nd December 2004, 02:03 PM	#7
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Its ok ronpakis. You are entitled to your opinions. The worst that can happen is that people stop responding to you.