Scale armor

A Senefelder · 9th March 2011, 02:52 AM

The threaded end of the screw is very rough as if its been cut away with a chisel ( maybe to shorten it for use ). The notch in the brass washer closest to the lens appears to have been perhaps filed in ( the edges seem to show a slightly rough bevel ).

I appologize if I was unclear, I did not intend to infere that this piece is Roman, only that screws have been around for quite a along time so would have been avaliable in the 16/17th century if that is in fact how old this piece is.

Is there any evidence of how this would have been closed? If it is indeed some sort of scale standard or if you prefer bishops mantle there should be some method of closing the two sides together.

ncioran · 14th March 2011, 01:15 PM

Peter,

Alan directed me to this thread, and I must say thanks very much. What a fascinating piece. Based on the construction details of the piece I'm inclined to his opinion that it is a Spanish armour survival, though I wouldn't hold myself forth as any sort of expert.

That said, I have a number of questions about the piece which I hope you can answer, some of which may shed some further light:

The Fabric Substrate

It appears from the pictures to be a fairly heavy tabby-woven material. That said:

- Can you tell if it is linen, cotton, or hemp?
- In your third picture with the scales turned up it appears to be set on the bias to the lines the tape and scales are sewn on. Is that correct?
- In the same photo the edge of the fabric is shown. Is it a selvedge edge, or is it bound?
- If bound, what stitch was used?

The Tape

- Can you tell if it is linen, cotton, or hemp?
- How wide is the tape before folding?
- Am I correct in thinking that the fold in the tape is at the top edge where it is sewn down?
- In the picture of the nut is the seam shown below the nut the other side of the seam holding the tape down?
- Can you tell what kind of thread was used - Linen or cotton?
- What stitch was used?
- How long are the stitches?

The Lining

- Can you tell if it is linen, cotton, hemp, or silk (silk linings in fabric armours are known)?
- Is the scrap of fabric under the nut a piece of the lining?
- If yes, can you tell what the weave looks like a twill to me. Is that correct, or is it just an artifact of the angle of the shot?

The Top

- There seems to be a strip of tape at the top edge of the garment. It appears to be over the top row of scales' rivets. Is that correct?
- If so, how is it secured to the substrate, lining, and face of the scales?

Thanks very much!
Nicholas Cioran

A Senefelder · 14th March 2011, 04:37 PM

Cole, from the look of the pic the edging around the neck line looks as if it may be thin leather. The 17th century Polish scale cuirass i've seen in the Baltimore museum was done in that manner and looked similar to what I can see in the picture. Hopefully Peter can shed some light on this.

ncioran · 14th March 2011, 09:00 PM

Thanks Allan!

Is it in the Walter's Collection? I wouldn't mind tracking that one down either.

Cole

A Senefelder · 15th March 2011, 12:59 PM

Cole you'll have to forgive me, it was about 20 years ago ( my sisters graduation from college where Mr. Rogers was the commencement speaker ) so I do not recall the name of the gallery. It was a nice little art gallery in Baltimore and thier collection of arms and armour at that time was in thier basement which at that time was set up like a castle complete with stonework and stone spiral staircase to access it IIRC.

pbleed · 16th March 2011, 02:34 AM

Dear Friends,
cole and I had a couple of off line exchanges. Perhaps some on the forum will find them of interest
Thanks very much your message. I appreciate that Alan Senenfelder was kind enough to pass it along to you. Indeed, thanks to the good offices of Madelein Roberg, we have a very good analysis of the fibers and fabrics of the scale armor we are studying.
For now, let me pass along some summary information
1. Your observations on the structure of the armor are very good. We will present a summary of the structure in our final report of the armor.
2. The Fabric Substrate
What you call the " The Fabric Substrate " is composed of irregular, undyed "bast fiber"
3. The "Tape"
The tape is twill woven cotton with a blue dyed warp element. In use, this tape was doubled and the scales are attached by rivets . My colleague Doug Scott found a reference to what seems to be very similar tape used as "lace" on the British army uniforms of "other ranks" of War of 1812.
The main thread used to attach the riveted tapes to the "fabric substrate" is thick, doubled bast fiber
4 The fabric that you call the "lining" is a bit problematical. It may indeed, have been a lining that reached entirely across the face opposite of the scale.
It is twill-woven cotton
5. The "Top"
The fabric along the front neckline of the armor is undyed bast fiber.
6. Now, let me ask you to look once again at the brass spanner nuts that hold the slot-headed screws at either side of the armor. Senenfeld sees that as potentially rather old. And he may be right, but I see it as a well machined bit of hardware. I could see it as very 19th century. I am also not finding very much literature on the chronology of nuts and bolts. Can you share any expertise?

A Senefelder · 16th March 2011, 01:48 PM

Peter, the timing of your posting this has been immaculate. Cole will be begining construction on a scale garment fairly soon after he picks up the scales i've made for him and the opportunity to view the construction of this piece will be of great help i'm sure.

16th March 2011, 02:34 AM	#6
pbleed Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Little Rock, Arkansas Posts: 88	responses to Cole's questions Dear Friends, cole and I had a couple of off line exchanges. Perhaps some on the forum will find them of interest Thanks very much your message. I appreciate that Alan Senenfelder was kind enough to pass it along to you. Indeed, thanks to the good offices of Madelein Roberg, we have a very good analysis of the fibers and fabrics of the scale armor we are studying. For now, let me pass along some summary information 1. Your observations on the structure of the armor are very good. We will present a summary of the structure in our final report of the armor. 2. The Fabric Substrate What you call the " The Fabric Substrate " is composed of irregular, undyed "bast fiber" 3. The "Tape" The tape is twill woven cotton with a blue dyed warp element. In use, this tape was doubled and the scales are attached by rivets . My colleague Doug Scott found a reference to what seems to be very similar tape used as "lace" on the British army uniforms of "other ranks" of War of 1812. The main thread used to attach the riveted tapes to the "fabric substrate" is thick, doubled bast fiber 4 The fabric that you call the "lining" is a bit problematical. It may indeed, have been a lining that reached entirely across the face opposite of the scale. It is twill-woven cotton 5. The "Top" The fabric along the front neckline of the armor is undyed bast fiber. 6. Now, let me ask you to look once again at the brass spanner nuts that hold the slot-headed screws at either side of the armor. Senenfeld sees that as potentially rather old. And he may be right, but I see it as a well machined bit of hardware. I could see it as very 19th century. I am also not finding very much literature on the chronology of nuts and bolts. Can you share any expertise?

9th March 2011, 02:52 AM	#1
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	The threaded end of the screw is very rough as if its been cut away with a chisel ( maybe to shorten it for use ). The notch in the brass washer closest to the lens appears to have been perhaps filed in ( the edges seem to show a slightly rough bevel ). I appologize if I was unclear, I did not intend to infere that this piece is Roman, only that screws have been around for quite a along time so would have been avaliable in the 16/17th century if that is in fact how old this piece is. Is there any evidence of how this would have been closed? If it is indeed some sort of scale standard or if you prefer bishops mantle there should be some method of closing the two sides together.

14th March 2011, 01:15 PM	#2
ncioran Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 3	Peter, Alan directed me to this thread, and I must say thanks very much. What a fascinating piece. Based on the construction details of the piece I'm inclined to his opinion that it is a Spanish armour survival, though I wouldn't hold myself forth as any sort of expert. That said, I have a number of questions about the piece which I hope you can answer, some of which may shed some further light: The Fabric Substrate It appears from the pictures to be a fairly heavy tabby-woven material. That said: - Can you tell if it is linen, cotton, or hemp? - In your third picture with the scales turned up it appears to be set on the bias to the lines the tape and scales are sewn on. Is that correct? - In the same photo the edge of the fabric is shown. Is it a selvedge edge, or is it bound? - If bound, what stitch was used? The Tape - Can you tell if it is linen, cotton, or hemp? - How wide is the tape before folding? - Am I correct in thinking that the fold in the tape is at the top edge where it is sewn down? - In the picture of the nut is the seam shown below the nut the other side of the seam holding the tape down? - Can you tell what kind of thread was used - Linen or cotton? - What stitch was used? - How long are the stitches? The Lining - Can you tell if it is linen, cotton, hemp, or silk (silk linings in fabric armours are known)? - Is the scrap of fabric under the nut a piece of the lining? - If yes, can you tell what the weave looks like a twill to me. Is that correct, or is it just an artifact of the angle of the shot? The Top - There seems to be a strip of tape at the top edge of the garment. It appears to be over the top row of scales' rivets. Is that correct? - If so, how is it secured to the substrate, lining, and face of the scales? Thanks very much! Nicholas Cioran

14th March 2011, 04:37 PM	#3
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	Cole, from the look of the pic the edging around the neck line looks as if it may be thin leather. The 17th century Polish scale cuirass i've seen in the Baltimore museum was done in that manner and looked similar to what I can see in the picture. Hopefully Peter can shed some light on this.

14th March 2011, 09:00 PM	#4
ncioran Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 3	Thanks Allan! Is it in the Walter's Collection? I wouldn't mind tracking that one down either. Cole

15th March 2011, 12:59 PM	#5
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	Cole you'll have to forgive me, it was about 20 years ago ( my sisters graduation from college where Mr. Rogers was the commencement speaker ) so I do not recall the name of the gallery. It was a nice little art gallery in Baltimore and thier collection of arms and armour at that time was in thier basement which at that time was set up like a castle complete with stonework and stone spiral staircase to access it IIRC.

16th March 2011, 01:48 PM	#7
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	Peter, the timing of your posting this has been immaculate. Cole will be begining construction on a scale garment fairly soon after he picks up the scales i've made for him and the opportunity to view the construction of this piece will be of great help i'm sure.