Den Pasar Museum

Gavin Nugent · 7th March 2011, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Thanks Alan. I understand your fear. Hopefully the grant money will be used wisely.

If anything I hope the money is used to improve security and protect the collection. Despite out of date cameras, anyone can open most of the sliding glass doors and gain access to the items...I know I was not questioned when I slid open a panel to get a good clear flash shot of some pieces....This is where any money would benefit the museum.

Gav

A. G. Maisey · 7th March 2011, 03:56 AM

How long ago were you able to open the cabinets Gav?

The ones I tried will not open now.

I did something like 1000 images of this museum,I photographed everything inside and outside that I could point a camera at, but all I've provided in my site is a sample. If I get sufficient interest I might put up a few more pics, but essentially this site of mine, and this Forum, are about weaponry, rather than architecture and sarcophagi, so I reckon what's there is sufficient for the moment.

I asked about info on the keris on display two years ago, and I could not find anybody on the staff who knew anything at all.

The "cinquadea" type keris is a pretty scarce type. I have two, but I've only ever seen four altogether.

Gavin Nugent · 7th March 2011, 04:11 AM

Hi Alan,

I had two cabinets open for quite a while at the end of 2010.
I may not have been seen or it may have been that as I had my partner, children and a Balinese friend with me that no one came rushing in or I just looked plain honest and friendly with only an enquiring mind and a camera working overtime.
A lot were sealed tight with no access though, others I thought it would be too bold to do so further as I did want to see the whole museum without ticking of officials.

It seems we had the same approach with photography too. I climbed one of those steep stair cases and took a few ariel shots...nice and cool in the breeze too.

I agree you covered the limited amount of weapons very well.
One however that sticks in my mind was in the theatre abode, the theatric shield with the long central spike, I kind of wondered if there was historical aspects of real use based around its manufacture?

It is a shame there is nothing noted of the 'Lurus' keris it is a stunner and although I didn't get close enough, it appeared one aspect was hollowed/pierced. great form, great size, great desire to handle one.
The other above had 15luks from memory, something else I have never seen before on a Bali Keris.

You are a lucky man to own 2 'cinquadea' style Keris, they are indeed gorgeous.

Gav

A. G. Maisey · 7th March 2011, 05:08 AM

This the two keris you mean?

I think the straight one is probably Bali/Lombok. Looks like the gandhik has been pierced, and they do unusual stuff like on Lombok keris fairly often.

The other waved one I don't find unusual. Nice keris, but not unusual.

Yes, the multi-fullered keris are pretty nice, but they didn't come cheap. I got the first one in Australia years ago at a shop in the Rocks, the other one came as part of a deal. I saw one in Celuk a couple years back too, and would have bought it, but the seller was just being ridiculous with his price, so I let him keep it since he apparently liked it so much.

Gavin Nugent · 7th March 2011, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

This the two keris you mean?

I think the straight one is probably Bali/Lombok. Looks like the gandhik has been pierced, and they do unusual stuff like on Lombok keris fairly often.

The other waved one I don't find unusual. Nice keris, but not unusual.

That's them Alan.

Every time I see this Keris Lurus I think of the Ulan Danu for some reason, perhaps the pergoda like gandhik.

The other luk Keris with it, how common is 15 luks on Bali keris, I always thought 11 was the limit in this region??

Thanks

Gav

A. G. Maisey · 7th March 2011, 07:07 AM

Yeah, I can see that.

15 luk is not unusual for a Bali keris.

Even a lot more luk is not unusual.

It is a little out of the ordinary in Jawa, where more than 13 is an indication that the keris was made for somebody with an unusual character, somebody like, say, an artist, dancer, healer. Not Mister Subiasa.

Jussi M. · 7th March 2011, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

If I get sufficient interest I might put up a few more pics, but essentially this site of mine, and this Forum, are about weaponry, rather than architecture and sarcophagi, so I reckon what's there is sufficient for the moment.

Well... Both architecture and sarcophagi are artifacts of the same culture(s) that gave birth and nurtured the keris as we encounter it today so it would not be off the mark to have more insight to them.

Just my opinion of course but it is understandable if the answer is "no" as putting those files up and running takes considerable time which is a scarce commodity.

That said, and to be clear, I vote yes. Please.

Thanks,

J.

David · 8th March 2011, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The "cinquadea" type keris is a pretty scarce type. I have two, but I've only ever seen four altogether.

Would i be correct that the "cinquadea" type keris is #12. Instead of describing it that way i would be more inclined to see it as a Balinese take on a keris sepang. I have never seen one like this. Do you know much about these Alan? Does this type of keris serve the same "purpose" as keris sepang? I'd say you are fortunate to have 2 of these in your possession.

A. G. Maisey · 8th March 2011, 07:18 AM

Yeah, its valid to call it a sepang. I just followed Gav's lead, and as a general rule I don't really care too much about what anybody calls something, as long as we understand one another.

I do not know anything about them except that they are exceptionally rare. My two are quite heavy, substantial pieces, but I do not know where they come from, what period, Balinese name, who used them,nor anything else.

Incidentally, those photos were taken with a Canon 980 IS. This is a little P&S shirt pocket camera. In virtually all the inside shots the light was incredibly poor. I have never been so satisfied with any camera that I've owned, and I've owned a few.

VANDOO · 8th March 2011, 05:24 PM

HOPEFULLY WHAT IS ALREADY THERE AT THE MUSEUM WILL REMAIN THE SAME AND PERHAPS THEY WILL ADD A INSIDE DISPLAY AREA WITH ARTEFACTS THAT NEED MORE CARE AND PROTECTION.
ONE OF THE THINGS I LIKE ABOUT BALI IS THERE ARE NO DEAD SHRINES THERE IS ALWAYS SOMEONE WHO PUTS FLOWERS OR OFFERINGS ON THEM ALL, USUALLY EVERY DAY. THOUGH THE BUILDINGS MAY BE A MUSEUM DISPLAY THEY STILL LIVE IN THE TRADITIONAL SENSE AND OFFERNINGS ARE NO DOUBT MADE TO THE SPIRITS OF THE LAND AND TO THE SHRINES. BALI IS A VERY SPIRITUAL PLACE AS WELL AS A VERY EARTHLY ONE.

THANKS FOR THE PICTURES IT BRINGS BACK MEMORIES AND MAKES ME WANT TO RETURN FOR A VISIT.

kulbuntet · 8th March 2011, 07:06 PM

Pak Alan,

Did you see in your visit to the museum a bali wedung? One like i did post here about a year ago? You thought the name could be pentaga, but you were not sure about it. I hope you maybe seen one there, and that you maybe could remeber the information given by the museum.

Regards,

Michel

A. G. Maisey · 8th March 2011, 09:02 PM

Michel, there is a photo of one of these little axes on page two, and I'm posting it here also.

The display tag reads "tiuk pengentas, for cutting covering corpse"

The name I gave in response to your original query was "pengantas", I was running on memory, and I made an error.

"tiuk" is Balinese for "knife", so this is a pengentas knife. I do not know the meaning of "pengentas", but it has been explained to me that at a funeral procession one of these knives precedes the procession.

This form is only one of the styles that have the same name, I have seen, and owned, other Balinese knives and axes that had the same name.

Michel, I appreciate your courtesy, but there really is no need to use "Pak" when you address me. I'm not Indonesian, and this is an English language forum, so we use the rules of English language etiquette, which do not include addressing somebody as Mr. (pak) + given name.

When I'm in Indonesia it would offend me if somebody younger or of inferior status did not use "Pak" when they addressed me, but on this forum, we are not in Indonesia.

7th March 2011, 04:11 AM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Hi Alan, I had two cabinets open for quite a while at the end of 2010. I may not have been seen or it may have been that as I had my partner, children and a Balinese friend with me that no one came rushing in or I just looked plain honest and friendly with only an enquiring mind and a camera working overtime. A lot were sealed tight with no access though, others I thought it would be too bold to do so further as I did want to see the whole museum without ticking of officials. It seems we had the same approach with photography too. I climbed one of those steep stair cases and took a few ariel shots...nice and cool in the breeze too. I agree you covered the limited amount of weapons very well. One however that sticks in my mind was in the theatre abode, the theatric shield with the long central spike, I kind of wondered if there was historical aspects of real use based around its manufacture? It is a shame there is nothing noted of the 'Lurus' keris it is a stunner and although I didn't get close enough, it appeared one aspect was hollowed/pierced. great form, great size, great desire to handle one. The other above had 15luks from memory, something else I have never seen before on a Bali Keris. You are a lucky man to own 2 'cinquadea' style Keris, they are indeed gorgeous. Gav Last edited by freebooter; 7th March 2011 at 04:30 AM.

7th March 2011, 05:08 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	This the two keris you mean? I think the straight one is probably Bali/Lombok. Looks like the gandhik has been pierced, and they do unusual stuff like on Lombok keris fairly often. The other waved one I don't find unusual. Nice keris, but not unusual. Yes, the multi-fullered keris are pretty nice, but they didn't come cheap. I got the first one in Australia years ago at a shop in the Rocks, the other one came as part of a deal. I saw one in Celuk a couple years back too, and would have bought it, but the seller was just being ridiculous with his price, so I let him keep it since he apparently liked it so much. Attached Images

7th March 2011, 03:56 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	How long ago were you able to open the cabinets Gav? The ones I tried will not open now. I did something like 1000 images of this museum,I photographed everything inside and outside that I could point a camera at, but all I've provided in my site is a sample. If I get sufficient interest I might put up a few more pics, but essentially this site of mine, and this Forum, are about weaponry, rather than architecture and sarcophagi, so I reckon what's there is sufficient for the moment. I asked about info on the keris on display two years ago, and I could not find anybody on the staff who knew anything at all. The "cinquadea" type keris is a pretty scarce type. I have two, but I've only ever seen four altogether.

7th March 2011, 07:07 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yeah, I can see that. 15 luk is not unusual for a Bali keris. Even a lot more luk is not unusual. It is a little out of the ordinary in Jawa, where more than 13 is an indication that the keris was made for somebody with an unusual character, somebody like, say, an artist, dancer, healer. Not Mister Subiasa.

8th March 2011, 07:18 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yeah, its valid to call it a sepang. I just followed Gav's lead, and as a general rule I don't really care too much about what anybody calls something, as long as we understand one another. I do not know anything about them except that they are exceptionally rare. My two are quite heavy, substantial pieces, but I do not know where they come from, what period, Balinese name, who used them,nor anything else. Incidentally, those photos were taken with a Canon 980 IS. This is a little P&S shirt pocket camera. In virtually all the inside shots the light was incredibly poor. I have never been so satisfied with any camera that I've owned, and I've owned a few.

8th March 2011, 05:24 PM	#10
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	HOPEFULLY WHAT IS ALREADY THERE AT THE MUSEUM WILL REMAIN THE SAME AND PERHAPS THEY WILL ADD A INSIDE DISPLAY AREA WITH ARTEFACTS THAT NEED MORE CARE AND PROTECTION. ONE OF THE THINGS I LIKE ABOUT BALI IS THERE ARE NO DEAD SHRINES THERE IS ALWAYS SOMEONE WHO PUTS FLOWERS OR OFFERINGS ON THEM ALL, USUALLY EVERY DAY. THOUGH THE BUILDINGS MAY BE A MUSEUM DISPLAY THEY STILL LIVE IN THE TRADITIONAL SENSE AND OFFERNINGS ARE NO DOUBT MADE TO THE SPIRITS OF THE LAND AND TO THE SHRINES. BALI IS A VERY SPIRITUAL PLACE AS WELL AS A VERY EARTHLY ONE. THANKS FOR THE PICTURES IT BRINGS BACK MEMORIES AND MAKES ME WANT TO RETURN FOR A VISIT.

8th March 2011, 07:06 PM	#11
kulbuntet Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands Posts: 159	Pak Alan, Did you see in your visit to the museum a bali wedung? One like i did post here about a year ago? You thought the name could be pentaga, but you were not sure about it. I hope you maybe seen one there, and that you maybe could remeber the information given by the museum. Regards, Michel

8th March 2011, 09:02 PM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Michel, there is a photo of one of these little axes on page two, and I'm posting it here also. The display tag reads "tiuk pengentas, for cutting covering corpse" The name I gave in response to your original query was "pengantas", I was running on memory, and I made an error. "tiuk" is Balinese for "knife", so this is a pengentas knife. I do not know the meaning of "pengentas", but it has been explained to me that at a funeral procession one of these knives precedes the procession. This form is only one of the styles that have the same name, I have seen, and owned, other Balinese knives and axes that had the same name. Michel, I appreciate your courtesy, but there really is no need to use "Pak" when you address me. I'm not Indonesian, and this is an English language forum, so we use the rules of English language etiquette, which do not include addressing somebody as Mr. (pak) + given name. When I'm in Indonesia it would offend me if somebody younger or of inferior status did not use "Pak" when they addressed me, but on this forum, we are not in Indonesia. Attached Images