Sliding weights

fearn · 3rd July 2005, 07:47 PM

Hi Jeff,

Neat sword! I think it's a solution to a different problem, though. There's a book out there (forgot the title) that's a translation of a late-medieval German swordmanship manual.

In that manual, they show the proper way to use a long sword (i.e. hand-and-a-half sword) against a foe in plate armor. Basically, you have to have gloves, on, because you grab the sword half-way up the blade and use the tip as a bayonet/pry-bar to attack the cracks in the armor at extreme close range. I say bayonet rather than short spear, because the the stance reminds me of the way one holds a rifle with for bayonet practice, as do the moves (short stabs and swings, using the pommel and guard in place of the rifle butt).

My suspicion is that this sword was designed with this half-sword grip in mind: Normally, one's finger holds the guard at the base, but at close quarters, you grab the pommel with the other hand, push the guard forward with the lead hand, and use it in a half-sword grip, without sacrificing the guard on the forward hand.

As far as swords with sliding weights, doesn't Stone's Glossary have a picture? I don't have my copy with me, but I have a memory that it does.

Fearn

Rivkin · 3rd July 2005, 08:14 PM

In all honesty - I can imagine (barely) how one can use a movable weight in a throwing weapon, hoping to create some complex gyroscopic motion that would create a restoring force and stabilizing the trajectory as a result.

I can imagine using an adjustable grip or pommel to manage the balance and so on. I can imagine using an axe, the weapon with a high angular momentum.

I can't imagine any reasonable use for a moving mercury or anything in a sword. Suppresion of oscillations is most reasonably done by putting a tuned pitchfork into pommel. If this pitchfork is surrounded by an extremely viscous material, i.e. overdamped, you can have a very efficient transform of oscillations into heat (that's what they do in modern "professional" tools, like hammers). Another way is to design a sword in the way that all it's oscillations somehow negatively interfere with each other, so it basically damps itself (this method is way more complex, but that's what used in modern cameras to suppress the vibrations from shutter/mirror release).

Using a bottle of mercury for this purpose is rather strange.

Jens Nordlunde · 3rd July 2005, 08:55 PM

Jeff, thanks a lot, I will try to have a look at it if possible.
Fearn, interesting what you write, but let us wait and see what I can come up with.
Rivkin, hold your horses till I - maybe can come up with something else.

Gentlemen it has been a pleasure

Jens

Jim McDougall · 6th July 2005, 12:53 AM

OK Fearn, I spent the better part of an evening thumbing through Stones, and didn't find any evidence of sliding weights or anything similar....but must say it was still enjoyable as always.I really love that book!!

No matter how many times guys like to hammer away at Stone for the occasional errors, it's still fun to read so much very early data.He really set the stage for weapons research, and encouraged future researchers, such as us, to correct the inevitable errors with new evidence and revised data.
One thing I did find, and at the risk of mentioning something which applies only indirectly and is most probably irrelevant, I found:

"...Cestus: Heavy leather things, often weighted with lead or iron, wound around the hands and arms of Roman boxers to give additional weight to thier blows"
-Stone, p.168

Once again, leave it to the legacy of the ancients. Obviously, this note is purely speculative correlating the concept in dynamics and influences of many aspects of earlier cultures in application in later times. Clearly one would not need to seek such simplistic dynamics for the increase of force in a sword in ancient boxing, but the coincidence seemed worthy of note.

The search for the elusive sword with the slide continues

Best regards,
Jim

Rick · 6th July 2005, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

OK Fearn, I spent the better part of an evening thumbing through Stones, and didn't find any evidence of sliding weights or anything similar....but must say it was still enjoyable as always.I really love that book!!

No matter how many times guys like to hammer away at Stone for the occasional errors, it's still fun to read so much very early data.He really set the stage for weapons research, and encouraged future researchers, such as us, to correct the inevitable errors with new evidence and revised data.
One thing I did find, and certain unnamed parties will go berserk ranting about unrelated or irrelevant data or free association etc. by my mentioning it.....

<snipped>

Best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 6th July 2005, 01:04 AM

Man you're fast Rick!!!!

Rick · 6th July 2005, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Man you're fast Rick!!!!

Eight years of memories Jim .

Andrew · 6th July 2005, 01:26 AM

There is a tool used in orthopedic surgery for driving and extracting nails in bone. The concept is simple, but effective: the tool's head is placed on the nail head, and a sliding weight is forceably impacted in the desired direction. Forward to drive the nail, back to extract.

As with Jim's observation, this is not directly relevant, but may be edifying.

fearn · 6th July 2005, 02:12 AM

Jim, thanks for checking Stone's glossary for me. Now I'll have to figure out what stray memory I was thinking of. Possibly it was a sliding sleeve on a spear (for the forward hand, so you don't sand your palm off jabbing with the spear). Otherwise, I agree with you about the value of that book. I discovered my parents' original copy as an impressionable pre-teen. Now I'm here. Go figure.

Fearn

3rd July 2005, 07:47 PM	#1
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Jeff, Neat sword! I think it's a solution to a different problem, though. There's a book out there (forgot the title) that's a translation of a late-medieval German swordmanship manual. In that manual, they show the proper way to use a long sword (i.e. hand-and-a-half sword) against a foe in plate armor. Basically, you have to have gloves, on, because you grab the sword half-way up the blade and use the tip as a bayonet/pry-bar to attack the cracks in the armor at extreme close range. I say bayonet rather than short spear, because the the stance reminds me of the way one holds a rifle with for bayonet practice, as do the moves (short stabs and swings, using the pommel and guard in place of the rifle butt). My suspicion is that this sword was designed with this half-sword grip in mind: Normally, one's finger holds the guard at the base, but at close quarters, you grab the pommel with the other hand, push the guard forward with the lead hand, and use it in a half-sword grip, without sacrificing the guard on the forward hand. As far as swords with sliding weights, doesn't Stone's Glossary have a picture? I don't have my copy with me, but I have a memory that it does. Fearn

3rd July 2005, 08:14 PM	#2
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	In all honesty - I can imagine (barely) how one can use a movable weight in a throwing weapon, hoping to create some complex gyroscopic motion that would create a restoring force and stabilizing the trajectory as a result. I can imagine using an adjustable grip or pommel to manage the balance and so on. I can imagine using an axe, the weapon with a high angular momentum. I can't imagine any reasonable use for a moving mercury or anything in a sword. Suppresion of oscillations is most reasonably done by putting a tuned pitchfork into pommel. If this pitchfork is surrounded by an extremely viscous material, i.e. overdamped, you can have a very efficient transform of oscillations into heat (that's what they do in modern "professional" tools, like hammers). Another way is to design a sword in the way that all it's oscillations somehow negatively interfere with each other, so it basically damps itself (this method is way more complex, but that's what used in modern cameras to suppress the vibrations from shutter/mirror release). Using a bottle of mercury for this purpose is rather strange.

3rd July 2005, 08:55 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Jeff, thanks a lot, I will try to have a look at it if possible. Fearn, interesting what you write, but let us wait and see what I can come up with. Rivkin, hold your horses till I - maybe can come up with something else. Gentlemen it has been a pleasure Jens

6th July 2005, 12:53 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	OK Fearn, I spent the better part of an evening thumbing through Stones, and didn't find any evidence of sliding weights or anything similar....but must say it was still enjoyable as always.I really love that book!! No matter how many times guys like to hammer away at Stone for the occasional errors, it's still fun to read so much very early data.He really set the stage for weapons research, and encouraged future researchers, such as us, to correct the inevitable errors with new evidence and revised data. One thing I did find, and at the risk of mentioning something which applies only indirectly and is most probably irrelevant, I found: "...Cestus: Heavy leather things, often weighted with lead or iron, wound around the hands and arms of Roman boxers to give additional weight to thier blows" -Stone, p.168 Once again, leave it to the legacy of the ancients. Obviously, this note is purely speculative correlating the concept in dynamics and influences of many aspects of earlier cultures in application in later times. Clearly one would not need to seek such simplistic dynamics for the increase of force in a sword in ancient boxing, but the coincidence seemed worthy of note. The search for the elusive sword with the slide continues Best regards, Jim

6th July 2005, 01:04 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Man you're fast Rick!!!!

6th July 2005, 01:26 AM	#8
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	There is a tool used in orthopedic surgery for driving and extracting nails in bone. The concept is simple, but effective: the tool's head is placed on the nail head, and a sliding weight is forceably impacted in the desired direction. Forward to drive the nail, back to extract. As with Jim's observation, this is not directly relevant, but may be edifying.

6th July 2005, 02:12 AM	#9
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Jim, thanks for checking Stone's glossary for me. Now I'll have to figure out what stray memory I was thinking of. Possibly it was a sliding sleeve on a spear (for the forward hand, so you don't sand your palm off jabbing with the spear). Otherwise, I agree with you about the value of that book. I discovered my parents' original copy as an impressionable pre-teen. Now I'm here. Go figure. Fearn