Scale armor

pbleed · 4th March 2011, 12:36 AM

Assuming you are still willing to look deeper into this armor...
Let let me show you the under side of the scales of this armor. This image is taken from the 'front' of the armor. The scales are lifted up. You can see the fabric base. Also you see see how each scale isdouble rivetted to a doulbe folded tape of herring bone twill.
Please also note that there is a slot-headed screw - applied THRU the exposed row of scales - that attaches a leather strap.
I am struck at how regular th scales are. What do you see?
Peter

A Senefelder · 4th March 2011, 01:06 AM

Based on the method of construction, including the curving of the scales themselves, as well as the condition I would be inclined to think it possible that this piece is original colonial armour of the 16th or 17th century. It is built as a piece of period armour would be built ( as I would and have built armour including work with scales ) rather than a theater prop. The condition of the fabric while very good doesn't disqualify it as original, there are examples of a variety of textile armour, or at least armour related ( liners, or outter fabric shells for things like brigandine ) in as good or better condition than this piece. You said the history dates back to the 1870's. If its not prying how much of the provenance can you reveal?

pbleed · 4th March 2011, 02:56 AM

Dear Mr. Senefelder,
Thanks for yu comments. This armor was the property of a frontier Army staff office, John Gregory Bourke. He had got it in about 1870 in Arizona, but it came with a story of having been 'found' in west Texas.
What do you think about the slotted screw?

A Senefelder · 4th March 2011, 03:04 PM

The Romans were using screws, they're not a new investion but i'll admit that for this particualr application its " unexpected ". It appears based on the corrosion to have some age to it as it is similar to the material around it. The use of leather as a " washer " would make sense in a period context for this use, one couldn't run down to the hardware store and buy a box of number 8 steel washers, you would have had to punch a hole in a piece of steel, grind or file back the flash around the hole and then cut out a small square of circle around it to make a washer from metal, leathe would have been much less of a head ache. My only guess as to why there is a screw there instead of two rivets like the plates around it is A) this scale is overlapped by the scales on either side of it so there wasn't enough room for two rivets or B) this is a repair with some age to it. Are there any more screws you've located on this piece? How was it fastened closed?

pbleed · 9th March 2011, 01:57 AM

To breathe life into this discussion, please allow me to attach an image of the brass nut on this inside of the scale armor. I am not sure how old it may be, but I doubt that it is Roman.
Peter

A Senefelder · 9th March 2011, 02:52 AM

The threaded end of the screw is very rough as if its been cut away with a chisel ( maybe to shorten it for use ). The notch in the brass washer closest to the lens appears to have been perhaps filed in ( the edges seem to show a slightly rough bevel ).

I appologize if I was unclear, I did not intend to infere that this piece is Roman, only that screws have been around for quite a along time so would have been avaliable in the 16/17th century if that is in fact how old this piece is.

Is there any evidence of how this would have been closed? If it is indeed some sort of scale standard or if you prefer bishops mantle there should be some method of closing the two sides together.

ncioran · 14th March 2011, 01:15 PM

Peter,

Alan directed me to this thread, and I must say thanks very much. What a fascinating piece. Based on the construction details of the piece I'm inclined to his opinion that it is a Spanish armour survival, though I wouldn't hold myself forth as any sort of expert.

That said, I have a number of questions about the piece which I hope you can answer, some of which may shed some further light:

The Fabric Substrate

It appears from the pictures to be a fairly heavy tabby-woven material. That said:

- Can you tell if it is linen, cotton, or hemp?
- In your third picture with the scales turned up it appears to be set on the bias to the lines the tape and scales are sewn on. Is that correct?
- In the same photo the edge of the fabric is shown. Is it a selvedge edge, or is it bound?
- If bound, what stitch was used?

The Tape

- Can you tell if it is linen, cotton, or hemp?
- How wide is the tape before folding?
- Am I correct in thinking that the fold in the tape is at the top edge where it is sewn down?
- In the picture of the nut is the seam shown below the nut the other side of the seam holding the tape down?
- Can you tell what kind of thread was used - Linen or cotton?
- What stitch was used?
- How long are the stitches?

The Lining

- Can you tell if it is linen, cotton, hemp, or silk (silk linings in fabric armours are known)?
- Is the scrap of fabric under the nut a piece of the lining?
- If yes, can you tell what the weave looks like a twill to me. Is that correct, or is it just an artifact of the angle of the shot?

The Top

- There seems to be a strip of tape at the top edge of the garment. It appears to be over the top row of scales' rivets. Is that correct?
- If so, how is it secured to the substrate, lining, and face of the scales?

Thanks very much!
Nicholas Cioran

4th March 2011, 12:36 AM	#1
pbleed Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Little Rock, Arkansas Posts: 88	scale attachment Assuming you are still willing to look deeper into this armor... Let let me show you the under side of the scales of this armor. This image is taken from the 'front' of the armor. The scales are lifted up. You can see the fabric base. Also you see see how each scale isdouble rivetted to a doulbe folded tape of herring bone twill. Please also note that there is a slot-headed screw - applied THRU the exposed row of scales - that attaches a leather strap. I am struck at how regular th scales are. What do you see? Peter Attached Images

4th March 2011, 02:56 AM	#3
pbleed Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Little Rock, Arkansas Posts: 88	provenance Dear Mr. Senefelder, Thanks for yu comments. This armor was the property of a frontier Army staff office, John Gregory Bourke. He had got it in about 1870 in Arizona, but it came with a story of having been 'found' in west Texas. What do you think about the slotted screw?

9th March 2011, 01:57 AM	#5
pbleed Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Little Rock, Arkansas Posts: 88	the nut To breathe life into this discussion, please allow me to attach an image of the brass nut on this inside of the scale armor. I am not sure how old it may be, but I doubt that it is Roman. Peter Attached Images

4th March 2011, 01:06 AM	#2
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	Based on the method of construction, including the curving of the scales themselves, as well as the condition I would be inclined to think it possible that this piece is original colonial armour of the 16th or 17th century. It is built as a piece of period armour would be built ( as I would and have built armour including work with scales ) rather than a theater prop. The condition of the fabric while very good doesn't disqualify it as original, there are examples of a variety of textile armour, or at least armour related ( liners, or outter fabric shells for things like brigandine ) in as good or better condition than this piece. You said the history dates back to the 1870's. If its not prying how much of the provenance can you reveal?

4th March 2011, 03:04 PM	#4
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	The Romans were using screws, they're not a new investion but i'll admit that for this particualr application its " unexpected ". It appears based on the corrosion to have some age to it as it is similar to the material around it. The use of leather as a " washer " would make sense in a period context for this use, one couldn't run down to the hardware store and buy a box of number 8 steel washers, you would have had to punch a hole in a piece of steel, grind or file back the flash around the hole and then cut out a small square of circle around it to make a washer from metal, leathe would have been much less of a head ache. My only guess as to why there is a screw there instead of two rivets like the plates around it is A) this scale is overlapped by the scales on either side of it so there wasn't enough room for two rivets or B) this is a repair with some age to it. Are there any more screws you've located on this piece? How was it fastened closed?

9th March 2011, 02:52 AM	#6
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	The threaded end of the screw is very rough as if its been cut away with a chisel ( maybe to shorten it for use ). The notch in the brass washer closest to the lens appears to have been perhaps filed in ( the edges seem to show a slightly rough bevel ). I appologize if I was unclear, I did not intend to infere that this piece is Roman, only that screws have been around for quite a along time so would have been avaliable in the 16/17th century if that is in fact how old this piece is. Is there any evidence of how this would have been closed? If it is indeed some sort of scale standard or if you prefer bishops mantle there should be some method of closing the two sides together.

14th March 2011, 01:15 PM	#7
ncioran Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 3	Peter, Alan directed me to this thread, and I must say thanks very much. What a fascinating piece. Based on the construction details of the piece I'm inclined to his opinion that it is a Spanish armour survival, though I wouldn't hold myself forth as any sort of expert. That said, I have a number of questions about the piece which I hope you can answer, some of which may shed some further light: The Fabric Substrate It appears from the pictures to be a fairly heavy tabby-woven material. That said: - Can you tell if it is linen, cotton, or hemp? - In your third picture with the scales turned up it appears to be set on the bias to the lines the tape and scales are sewn on. Is that correct? - In the same photo the edge of the fabric is shown. Is it a selvedge edge, or is it bound? - If bound, what stitch was used? The Tape - Can you tell if it is linen, cotton, or hemp? - How wide is the tape before folding? - Am I correct in thinking that the fold in the tape is at the top edge where it is sewn down? - In the picture of the nut is the seam shown below the nut the other side of the seam holding the tape down? - Can you tell what kind of thread was used - Linen or cotton? - What stitch was used? - How long are the stitches? The Lining - Can you tell if it is linen, cotton, hemp, or silk (silk linings in fabric armours are known)? - Is the scrap of fabric under the nut a piece of the lining? - If yes, can you tell what the weave looks like a twill to me. Is that correct, or is it just an artifact of the angle of the shot? The Top - There seems to be a strip of tape at the top edge of the garment. It appears to be over the top row of scales' rivets. Is that correct? - If so, how is it secured to the substrate, lining, and face of the scales? Thanks very much! Nicholas Cioran