Scale armor

pbleed · 2nd March 2011, 02:04 AM

Respected Friends,
There have been no takers on this challenge. May I try ti attach a picture. What is this and how it it get to the Plains?
Peter

ward · 2nd March 2011, 02:22 AM

An image of the reverse of the mantle and a closeup of both sides of a detached scale would be very helpful.

Ward

A Senefelder · 2nd March 2011, 07:10 PM

I agree with Ward, pics of the back would be of assistance. If this is a theatrical piece it is of high quality. The scales have been curved to i'm guessing about 3-4 degrees which is consistant with some later historical examples i've seen ( the one that comes to mind is a 17th century Polish scale cuirass in a small art museum in Baltimore ). This curvature is to increase the strength of the scales via introducing the geometry of the curve, a step that would have been uneccessary for a theatrical piece as play goers would never have noticed nor would likely have cared.

The Spanish were the most heavily armoured Europeans in the Americas so its certainly not out of the realm of possibility for a Spanish attributation if in fact the piece is legitimate. A friend of my fathers in New Mexico was an avid collector of colonial Spanish arms and armour. He had a wide range of contacts in the southwest and aquired most of his pieces from the individuals who found them. If I recall correctly he had portions of what he believed was a scale horse barding found in the southwest as part of his collection. I will ask my father if my recollection of this is correct.

pbleed · 4th March 2011, 12:25 AM

Friends,
Thank you very much for the replies and the encouragement. I will attach a "rear view" of the mantle. It shows the 'inside' of the armor and the fabric that is the core of the armor. The stitches you see run from image left to right and they attach tapes to which are rivetted the ferrous scales. There MAY have been another layer of cloth on this surface, but if it was ever present it is not represented only by the remant in what you see at the upper right side.
Thank you for looking and please forgive me if Ido not knowing how to orient you on this object.
Peter

pbleed · 4th March 2011, 12:36 AM

Assuming you are still willing to look deeper into this armor...
Let let me show you the under side of the scales of this armor. This image is taken from the 'front' of the armor. The scales are lifted up. You can see the fabric base. Also you see see how each scale isdouble rivetted to a doulbe folded tape of herring bone twill.
Please also note that there is a slot-headed screw - applied THRU the exposed row of scales - that attaches a leather strap.
I am struck at how regular th scales are. What do you see?
Peter

A Senefelder · 4th March 2011, 01:06 AM

Based on the method of construction, including the curving of the scales themselves, as well as the condition I would be inclined to think it possible that this piece is original colonial armour of the 16th or 17th century. It is built as a piece of period armour would be built ( as I would and have built armour including work with scales ) rather than a theater prop. The condition of the fabric while very good doesn't disqualify it as original, there are examples of a variety of textile armour, or at least armour related ( liners, or outter fabric shells for things like brigandine ) in as good or better condition than this piece. You said the history dates back to the 1870's. If its not prying how much of the provenance can you reveal?

pbleed · 4th March 2011, 02:56 AM

Dear Mr. Senefelder,
Thanks for yu comments. This armor was the property of a frontier Army staff office, John Gregory Bourke. He had got it in about 1870 in Arizona, but it came with a story of having been 'found' in west Texas.
What do you think about the slotted screw?

A Senefelder · 4th March 2011, 03:04 PM

The Romans were using screws, they're not a new investion but i'll admit that for this particualr application its " unexpected ". It appears based on the corrosion to have some age to it as it is similar to the material around it. The use of leather as a " washer " would make sense in a period context for this use, one couldn't run down to the hardware store and buy a box of number 8 steel washers, you would have had to punch a hole in a piece of steel, grind or file back the flash around the hole and then cut out a small square of circle around it to make a washer from metal, leathe would have been much less of a head ache. My only guess as to why there is a screw there instead of two rivets like the plates around it is A) this scale is overlapped by the scales on either side of it so there wasn't enough room for two rivets or B) this is a repair with some age to it. Are there any more screws you've located on this piece? How was it fastened closed?

2nd March 2011, 02:04 AM	#1
pbleed Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Little Rock, Arkansas Posts: 88	mebbe a picture would help Respected Friends, There have been no takers on this challenge. May I try ti attach a picture. What is this and how it it get to the Plains? Peter Attached Images

4th March 2011, 12:25 AM	#4
pbleed Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Little Rock, Arkansas Posts: 88	The back and a detail Friends, Thank you very much for the replies and the encouragement. I will attach a "rear view" of the mantle. It shows the 'inside' of the armor and the fabric that is the core of the armor. The stitches you see run from image left to right and they attach tapes to which are rivetted the ferrous scales. There MAY have been another layer of cloth on this surface, but if it was ever present it is not represented only by the remant in what you see at the upper right side. Thank you for looking and please forgive me if Ido not knowing how to orient you on this object. Peter Attached Images

4th March 2011, 12:36 AM	#5
pbleed Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Little Rock, Arkansas Posts: 88	scale attachment Assuming you are still willing to look deeper into this armor... Let let me show you the under side of the scales of this armor. This image is taken from the 'front' of the armor. The scales are lifted up. You can see the fabric base. Also you see see how each scale isdouble rivetted to a doulbe folded tape of herring bone twill. Please also note that there is a slot-headed screw - applied THRU the exposed row of scales - that attaches a leather strap. I am struck at how regular th scales are. What do you see? Peter Attached Images

4th March 2011, 02:56 AM	#7
pbleed Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Little Rock, Arkansas Posts: 88	provenance Dear Mr. Senefelder, Thanks for yu comments. This armor was the property of a frontier Army staff office, John Gregory Bourke. He had got it in about 1870 in Arizona, but it came with a story of having been 'found' in west Texas. What do you think about the slotted screw?

2nd March 2011, 02:22 AM	#2
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	An image of the reverse of the mantle and a closeup of both sides of a detached scale would be very helpful. Ward

2nd March 2011, 07:10 PM	#3
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	I agree with Ward, pics of the back would be of assistance. If this is a theatrical piece it is of high quality. The scales have been curved to i'm guessing about 3-4 degrees which is consistant with some later historical examples i've seen ( the one that comes to mind is a 17th century Polish scale cuirass in a small art museum in Baltimore ). This curvature is to increase the strength of the scales via introducing the geometry of the curve, a step that would have been uneccessary for a theatrical piece as play goers would never have noticed nor would likely have cared. The Spanish were the most heavily armoured Europeans in the Americas so its certainly not out of the realm of possibility for a Spanish attributation if in fact the piece is legitimate. A friend of my fathers in New Mexico was an avid collector of colonial Spanish arms and armour. He had a wide range of contacts in the southwest and aquired most of his pieces from the individuals who found them. If I recall correctly he had portions of what he believed was a scale horse barding found in the southwest as part of his collection. I will ask my father if my recollection of this is correct.

4th March 2011, 01:06 AM	#6
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	Based on the method of construction, including the curving of the scales themselves, as well as the condition I would be inclined to think it possible that this piece is original colonial armour of the 16th or 17th century. It is built as a piece of period armour would be built ( as I would and have built armour including work with scales ) rather than a theater prop. The condition of the fabric while very good doesn't disqualify it as original, there are examples of a variety of textile armour, or at least armour related ( liners, or outter fabric shells for things like brigandine ) in as good or better condition than this piece. You said the history dates back to the 1870's. If its not prying how much of the provenance can you reveal?

4th March 2011, 03:04 PM	#8
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	The Romans were using screws, they're not a new investion but i'll admit that for this particualr application its " unexpected ". It appears based on the corrosion to have some age to it as it is similar to the material around it. The use of leather as a " washer " would make sense in a period context for this use, one couldn't run down to the hardware store and buy a box of number 8 steel washers, you would have had to punch a hole in a piece of steel, grind or file back the flash around the hole and then cut out a small square of circle around it to make a washer from metal, leathe would have been much less of a head ache. My only guess as to why there is a screw there instead of two rivets like the plates around it is A) this scale is overlapped by the scales on either side of it so there wasn't enough room for two rivets or B) this is a repair with some age to it. Are there any more screws you've located on this piece? How was it fastened closed?