The Sendai Keris

[David]

Originally Posted by Gustav

David, just one thing that interests me: which are the "most writers" which "seem to think he acquired this keris in Manila"? The only publications I am aware, which raise the question about provenance of keris and kastane is "A fundamental study on Hasekura's kastane and kris" (Bulletin of Sendai City Museum) and "The kastane and the kris, their arrival in Japan in 1620" (in Royal Armouries Yearbook, vol. 3, Leeds), both written by Sasaki Kazuhiro, curator of Sendai City Museum, in 1998. Before there are only two publications of Sendai City Museum from 1988 and 1995, and article of Wahyono Martowikrido from 1997, where this thema is not discussed. There must be articles about this keris I am not aware of. I would be very interested to learn them know.

Sasaki Kazuhiro, the only writer I am aware of, which deals with this thema, has the oppinion, both keris and kastane are presented to Hasekura Tsunenaga by Philip III. Here in short he's points and other interesting details:

Among the 52 mementos that Hasekura brought to Japan, only three were presented to Date clan: portrait of Pope Paul V, kastane and keris.

Date Masamune drafted official letters only to Pope, the mayor of Sevilla and King Philipp III.

Masamune allowed Hasekura to take care of all official contacts with dignitaries in other countries.

Masamune obviously had great interest in the messages and gifts these figures bestoved on Hasekura.

Then Sasaki Kazuhiro writes:

"If we suppose Masamune requested only the articles from the three men he deemed most critical, then the two swords should have come from one of these three men. (...) it seems much more likely the Namban swords were a gift from Philipp III. This would also explain the reason these gifts made their way to the Masamune collection, while presents from dignitaries in other locales were allowed to remain in the Hasekura collection.

(...) We find an illustration of a kris hilt on plate 8 of Plautz's book (Nova Typis Transcta Navigatio, 1621). It was presented by Philipp III to his mother-in-law, Mary of Bavaria in 1599. He married Margaret of Austria by proxy in November 1598 in Ferrara. She and her mother sailed from Genoa in February (1599) and met Philipp III in Valencia (here I must think about the part keris played in weddings of high ranked persons in Bali
). I believe Philipp presented this kris to Mary as a memento of the marriage. Philipp III had inherited a vast collection, including Asian objects from Philipp II, his father. I believe Philipp II's collection contained various krises, and that the kris presented to Mary must have been one of them.

(...) Certainly, Philipp III knew Date Masamune would be pleased with the presentation of the swords, as he had been presented eight armours and one sword by Shogun Tokugawa Hidetada and the former Shogun Tokugawa Ieyasu as a sign of friendship between the two countries. Howewer, he could not present Spanish arms to Date Masamune because the presentation of Spanish arms to a foreigner was then prohibited by law."

David, you wrote in #24: "The common tale seems to be that he got them in Manila. Perhaps he did get them in Spain. It doesn't really matter." Is it so?

Gustav, you continue, it seems, to try to make this a debate in which one person will be proved victorious in the end, yet i am not completely clear on what important issues we truly disagree. You also seem to approach each rebuke with an adversarial tone. I am not the lest bit interested in such a debate. It is counter-productive to the discussion and given the pure speculation that we have to deal with in this case it is completely impossible that we can ever come to any positive conclusion anyway.
You are obviously better read on the subject than i. When i speak of "most writers" i am not coming from the scholarly position you are at all. I have only had the opportunity at this point in time to research this from the internet. It seems to be that "most writers" in that venue are following the Manila story. This does not make that story necessarily so and i have made no claims that it is. This is often the case on the internet where one particular story gets picked up and repeated again and again by various writers on websites.
Why does it not matter to me whether he was gifted the keris in Manila or Spain? Because in both scenario he is still not receiving it as a gift from the Balinese court. This is all i have been trying to establish here. If Phillip III presented this keris to him in Spain or by a Spanish official in the Philippines it has a completely different meaning, purpose and power than if it was presented to him directly from the Balinese court. From it's original source the gift would have come as a particular transference of power that would be absent from a second or third hand re-gifting of this keris. This is all i am trying to establish.
I posted the map to show the travel route, not to establish time lines so an off date does not particularly concern me. Is this travel route fairly correct? Has anyone written anything placing Hasekura in Bali or what is currently Indonesia at any time during his travels? This was my purpose behind posting the map, merely you help establish what you yourself are already saying, that Hasekura did not receive this keris in Bali directly from the court.
It also seems that the Christian symbolism on the keris would not likely have been placed there for the benefit of the Christian covert Hasekura since it seems that the gift of the keris may well have always been intended to be received by Date Masamune, who as far as i can tell was not a Christian. If the keris was originally gifted to Philip III or some earlier Spanish king perhaps the symbolism was placed there for their benefit. If the keris was indeed completely painted in Bali this would make more sense.