The Sendai Keris

David · 19th February 2011, 03:27 PM

Again Gustav, i am not sure what your argument is with me. I have not at all put forth that the hilt depicts a buddhist deity. I have in fact argued exactly the opposite, that it is probably of Bali origin.
I am sorry if my passing remark that this keris was "picked up" in his travels was "disturbing" to you, but there is absolutely no documented evidence in the rather well documented stories of this man's incredible journey's that he ever stepped foot in Bali so i am making the assumption that this was not a formal gift from any Balinese court. It may have been a gift from a diplomat in Manila who had contact with the Balinese court, or it may have been a gift from a Spanish diplomat who had such contact, but right now i see nothing that puts Hasekura Tsunenaga in Bali and most writers seem to think he acquired this keris in Manila. Under what circumstances i am afraid none of us can say. Yes it is a keris of status, but there is nothing to say that it was presented to Hasekura Tsunenaga directly from it's source.
As for the painting i am uncertain how an expert would determine if the symbol painted on the sheath was done by the same hand that painted the sheath if it was done in the same era using similar materials. Even so there is always the possibility that the entire painting of the sheath was done outside of Bali. Who knows. It's hard for me to form any opinions on that from the images available.
Interestingly it seems that the two arrows in the painted design may have been incorporated into the design perhaps because they were a part of Hasekura Tsunenaga's own coat of arms.

Gustav · 19th February 2011, 04:58 PM

David, just the first two lines in my last post were adressed to you. I thought, the rest is speaking for itself for somebody, who follows this discussion with smallest interest and attention. I wrote it just becouse you mentioned in the post before the initial reason: Barry's speculation on the hilt. This was what I could say about it.

There is a clear connection with the coat of arms of Hasekura Tsunenaga for sure. Yet in he's coat of arms the arrows are pointed upwards, otherwise, when pierced through heart (in christian symbolism), downwards. Actually this is the symbol of Teresa of Avila, who was exaltated to patroness of Spain at 1617 (Hasekura was baptisised and most probably got his coat of arms at 1615).

Actually he was leaving Spain in June 1617, so the 1616 on the map from wikipedia is a mistake.

As for the oppinion of an expert, I think, we can doubt it or to believe it, his oppinion has more weight then ours. Moreover, he was able to examine the keris in Sendai City Museum.

The possibility entire painting was done outside of Bali or Java is very, very small. The style of painting on sunggingan from Vienna (before 1608) is very similar (also W. Martowikrido mentions this). I have not seen till now better pictures of the third old sunggingan with alas-alasan in Munich, which is also in a good state of preservation.

Gustav · 19th February 2011, 07:49 PM

David, just one thing that interests me: which are the "most writers" which "seem to think he acquired this keris in Manila"? The only publications I am aware, which raise the question about provenance of keris and kastane is "A fundamental study on Hasekura's kastane and kris" (Bulletin of Sendai City Museum) and "The kastane and the kris, their arrival in Japan in 1620" (in Royal Armouries Yearbook, vol. 3, Leeds), both written by Sasaki Kazuhiro, curator of Sendai City Museum, in 1998. Before there are only two publications of Sendai City Museum from 1988 and 1995, and article of Wahyono Martowikrido from 1997, where this thema is not discussed. There must be articles about this keris I am not aware of. I would be very interested to learn them know.

Sasaki Kazuhiro, the only writer I am aware of, which deals with this thema, has the oppinion, both keris and kastane are presented to Hasekura Tsunenaga by Philip III. Here in short he's points and other interesting details:

Among the 52 mementos that Hasekura brought to Japan, only three were presented to Date clan: portrait of Pope Paul V, kastane and keris.

Date Masamune drafted official letters only to Pope, the mayor of Sevilla and King Philipp III.

Masamune allowed Hasekura to take care of all official contacts with dignitaries in other countries.

Masamune obviously had great interest in the messages and gifts these figures bestoved on Hasekura.

Then Sasaki Kazuhiro writes:

"If we suppose Masamune requested only the articles from the three men he deemed most critical, then the two swords should have come from one of these three men. (...) it seems much more likely the Namban swords were a gift from Philipp III. This would also explain the reason these gifts made their way to the Masamune collection, while presents from dignitaries in other locales were allowed to remain in the Hasekura collection.

(...) We find an illustration of a kris hilt on plate 8 of Plautz's book (Nova Typis Transcta Navigatio, 1621). It was presented by Philipp III to his mother-in-law, Mary of Bavaria in 1599. He married Margaret of Austria by proxy in November 1598 in Ferrara. She and her mother sailed from Genoa in February (1599) and met Philipp III in Valencia (here I must think about the part keris played in weddings of high ranked persons in Bali

). I believe Philipp presented this kris to Mary as a memento of the marriage. Philipp III had inherited a vast collection, including Asian objects from Philipp II, his father. I believe Philipp II's collection contained various krises, and that the kris presented to Mary must have been one of them.

(...) Certainly, Philipp III knew Date Masamune would be pleased with the presentation of the swords, as he had been presented eight armours and one sword by Shogun Tokugawa Hidetada and the former Shogun Tokugawa Ieyasu as a sign of friendship between the two countries. Howewer, he could not present Spanish arms to Date Masamune because the presentation of Spanish arms to a foreigner was then prohibited by law."

David, you wrote in #24: "The common tale seems to be that he got them in Manila. Perhaps he did get them in Spain. It doesn't really matter." Is it so?

David · 19th February 2011, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

David, just one thing that interests me: which are the "most writers" which "seem to think he acquired this keris in Manila"? The only publications I am aware, which raise the question about provenance of keris and kastane is "A fundamental study on Hasekura's kastane and kris" (Bulletin of Sendai City Museum) and "The kastane and the kris, their arrival in Japan in 1620" (in Royal Armouries Yearbook, vol. 3, Leeds), both written by Sasaki Kazuhiro, curator of Sendai City Museum, in 1998. Before there are only two publications of Sendai City Museum from 1988 and 1995, and article of Wahyono Martowikrido from 1997, where this thema is not discussed. There must be articles about this keris I am not aware of. I would be very interested to learn them know.

Sasaki Kazuhiro, the only writer I am aware of, which deals with this thema, has the oppinion, both keris and kastane are presented to Hasekura Tsunenaga by Philip III. Here in short he's points and other interesting details:

Among the 52 mementos that Hasekura brought to Japan, only three were presented to Date clan: portrait of Pope Paul V, kastane and keris.

Date Masamune drafted official letters only to Pope, the mayor of Sevilla and King Philipp III.

Masamune allowed Hasekura to take care of all official contacts with dignitaries in other countries.

Masamune obviously had great interest in the messages and gifts these figures bestoved on Hasekura.

Then Sasaki Kazuhiro writes:

"If we suppose Masamune requested only the articles from the three men he deemed most critical, then the two swords should have come from one of these three men. (...) it seems much more likely the Namban swords were a gift from Philipp III. This would also explain the reason these gifts made their way to the Masamune collection, while presents from dignitaries in other locales were allowed to remain in the Hasekura collection.

(...) We find an illustration of a kris hilt on plate 8 of Plautz's book (Nova Typis Transcta Navigatio, 1621). It was presented by Philipp III to his mother-in-law, Mary of Bavaria in 1599. He married Margaret of Austria by proxy in November 1598 in Ferrara. She and her mother sailed from Genoa in February (1599) and met Philipp III in Valencia (here I must think about the part keris played in weddings of high ranked persons in Bali

). I believe Philipp presented this kris to Mary as a memento of the marriage. Philipp III had inherited a vast collection, including Asian objects from Philipp II, his father. I believe Philipp II's collection contained various krises, and that the kris presented to Mary must have been one of them.

(...) Certainly, Philipp III knew Date Masamune would be pleased with the presentation of the swords, as he had been presented eight armours and one sword by Shogun Tokugawa Hidetada and the former Shogun Tokugawa Ieyasu as a sign of friendship between the two countries. Howewer, he could not present Spanish arms to Date Masamune because the presentation of Spanish arms to a foreigner was then prohibited by law."

David, you wrote in #24: "The common tale seems to be that he got them in Manila. Perhaps he did get them in Spain. It doesn't really matter." Is it so?

Gustav, you continue, it seems, to try to make this a debate in which one person will be proved victorious in the end, yet i am not completely clear on what important issues we truly disagree. You also seem to approach each rebuke with an adversarial tone. I am not the lest bit interested in such a debate. It is counter-productive to the discussion and given the pure speculation that we have to deal with in this case it is completely impossible that we can ever come to any positive conclusion anyway.
You are obviously better read on the subject than i. When i speak of "most writers" i am not coming from the scholarly position you are at all. I have only had the opportunity at this point in time to research this from the internet. It seems to be that "most writers" in that venue are following the Manila story. This does not make that story necessarily so and i have made no claims that it is. This is often the case on the internet where one particular story gets picked up and repeated again and again by various writers on websites.
Why does it not matter to me whether he was gifted the keris in Manila or Spain? Because in both scenario he is still not receiving it as a gift from the Balinese court. This is all i have been trying to establish here. If Phillip III presented this keris to him in Spain or by a Spanish official in the Philippines it has a completely different meaning, purpose and power than if it was presented to him directly from the Balinese court. From it's original source the gift would have come as a particular transference of power that would be absent from a second or third hand re-gifting of this keris. This is all i am trying to establish.
I posted the map to show the travel route, not to establish time lines so an off date does not particularly concern me. Is this travel route fairly correct? Has anyone written anything placing Hasekura in Bali or what is currently Indonesia at any time during his travels? This was my purpose behind posting the map, merely you help establish what you yourself are already saying, that Hasekura did not receive this keris in Bali directly from the court.

It also seems that the Christian symbolism on the keris would not likely have been placed there for the benefit of the Christian covert Hasekura since it seems that the gift of the keris may well have always been intended to be received by Date Masamune, who as far as i can tell was not a Christian. If the keris was originally gifted to Philip III or some earlier Spanish king perhaps the symbolism was placed there for their benefit. If the keris was indeed completely painted in Bali this would make more sense.

Gustav · 19th February 2011, 11:31 PM

David, there is no victory at all possible, and please accept my sincere apologies, if my tone seemed or was adversarial.

You are absolute right, there is most probably no possibility this keris beeing a gift directly received a Balinese court. Other possibilities each could have their speculations (behind some speculations are undeniable facts we learn to know) and averment proofs. I still have the deceptive idea, to follow each possibility would give me (and us) a better understanding or probably only a feeling of history, and in the case of this keris history is pure adventure.

David · 19th February 2011, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

David, there is no victory at all possible, and please accept my sincere apologies, if my tone seemed or was adversarial.

You are absolute wright, there is most probably no possibility this keris beeing a gift directly from a Balinese court. Other possibilities each could have their speculations and averment proofs. I still have the deceptive idea, to follow each possibility would give me (and us) a better understanding or probably only a feeling of history, and in the case of this keris history is pure adventure.

My kingdom for a time machine...

Gustav · 19th February 2011, 11:53 PM

... and this keris really IS a time machine

Neo · 25th February 2011, 03:54 AM

Sorry for changing the topic (I suppose Gustav and David are done with their very enriching discourse) ..

This keris in good condition gives me the impression that either the non-tropical climate is better for kerises or the Japanese way of maintenance (choji oil and uchiko) is better from preservation point of view. I also bet that the keris hasn't been stained in centuries.

However, seeing that the keris still has some traces of warangan, I doubt if it has seen much uchiko rubbing powder on it.

Any opinion from the maintenance perspective?

Amuk Murugul · 25th February 2011, 05:41 AM

Hullo everybody,

Hmmmmm ..... interesting piece.
So far, no one's really discussed the blade.
Perhaps I'll start it off, if I may, by saying that, as I recall, the damascene is comprised of metals which are not too dissimilar, thus giving an overall 'grey' impression.
The size of the blade is closer to Soenda and Bali kerises than Djawa kerises.
Also please note that the fret-work may not be of similar shape as that on later Djawa or Bali kerises.

Best,

Paul de Souza · 14th July 2017, 07:50 AM

I was surfing the forum and revisited this thread.

Something just occurred to me about the keris.

I have always wondered what a keris from the Malacca Sultanate or from a period close to after its conquest after 1511 to 1600 would have looked like. I think perhaps in the Sendai keris, we could be looking at a keris from the Peninsular or East Sumatra or at least acquired from that area rather than from Java or Bali.

In 1618, Portugal and Spain were in a Union under one King. While they were separate kingdoms, I would expect that Spanish power in Manila would hold sway and have significant influence over Portuguese possessions in South East Asia.

The Portuguese were constantly in conflict with the Malay states in the Peninsular and Sumatra, and even sometimes Allies. It would not have been difficult for the Portuguese to acquire high status keris as war booty or gifts. The Spanish, through the Portuguese, would have easy access to such keris.

At the same time, the Dutch had made significant in-roads in the East Indies (Indonesia) and working very hard to exclude Catholic Spain and the Portuguese from the areas they controlled. By 1619, Batavia was established, which would mean that the Dutch were generally successful in their policy in controlling the coastal areas of Java. This would make access to Java by Spain or Portugal very difficult at the time the Japanese Envoy was in Manila.

But more intriguing for me is the Kastane. Most of Sri Lanka or Ceylon was a Portuguese colony from 1597 to 1658. So it is not too surprising for the Portuguese to have acquired Kastane like the one featured and again pass it on to the Spanish.

Thus seeing the two items together, hints strongly at a Portuguese origin. And if the Keris has a Portuguese origin, it is more likely that it would have come the Peninsular and East Sumatra rather than from Java and Bali.

If the gifts were given by King Philip in Spain, he would have acquired them in the first from the Portuguese rather than the Dutch, which would mean a keris from the Peninsular / East Sumatra. Theoretically, Malacca and Ceylon were the Spanish King's dominions and hence logical to have items from these areas in his collection.

If the Japanese envoy acquired it when he was in Manila, the possibility of a Portuguese origin is even stronger given the enmity between the Dutch and Spanish and the difficulty in accessing Dutch controlled areas in Java.

So perhaps we are looking at a "Peninsular" keris instead.

If it is Peninsular, it would mean that keris form and aesthetics were fairly uniform in the Malay archipelago at that time, following closely precepts set in Java and Bali; we can't help say it is Javanese or Balinese in form at first look. So perhaps the diversification of the keris into distinct regional forms that we know today came much later in the 18th century and keris in the 17th century and earlier were all Javanese/Balinese in form.

Just a thought.

19th February 2011, 03:27 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Again Gustav, i am not sure what your argument is with me. I have not at all put forth that the hilt depicts a buddhist deity. I have in fact argued exactly the opposite, that it is probably of Bali origin. I am sorry if my passing remark that this keris was "picked up" in his travels was "disturbing" to you, but there is absolutely no documented evidence in the rather well documented stories of this man's incredible journey's that he ever stepped foot in Bali so i am making the assumption that this was not a formal gift from any Balinese court. It may have been a gift from a diplomat in Manila who had contact with the Balinese court, or it may have been a gift from a Spanish diplomat who had such contact, but right now i see nothing that puts Hasekura Tsunenaga in Bali and most writers seem to think he acquired this keris in Manila. Under what circumstances i am afraid none of us can say. Yes it is a keris of status, but there is nothing to say that it was presented to Hasekura Tsunenaga directly from it's source. As for the painting i am uncertain how an expert would determine if the symbol painted on the sheath was done by the same hand that painted the sheath if it was done in the same era using similar materials. Even so there is always the possibility that the entire painting of the sheath was done outside of Bali. Who knows. It's hard for me to form any opinions on that from the images available. Interestingly it seems that the two arrows in the painted design may have been incorporated into the design perhaps because they were a part of Hasekura Tsunenaga's own coat of arms. Attached Images

19th February 2011, 11:31 PM	#5
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	David, there is no victory at all possible, and please accept my sincere apologies, if my tone seemed or was adversarial. You are absolute right, there is most probably no possibility this keris beeing a gift directly received a Balinese court. Other possibilities each could have their speculations (behind some speculations are undeniable facts we learn to know) and averment proofs. I still have the deceptive idea, to follow each possibility would give me (and us) a better understanding or probably only a feeling of history, and in the case of this keris history is pure adventure. Last edited by Gustav; 19th February 2011 at 11:42 PM.

25th February 2011, 05:41 AM	#9
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 472	Hullo everybody, Hmmmmm ..... interesting piece. So far, no one's really discussed the blade. Perhaps I'll start it off, if I may, by saying that, as I recall, the damascene is comprised of metals which are not too dissimilar, thus giving an overall 'grey' impression. The size of the blade is closer to Soenda and Bali kerises than Djawa kerises. Also please note that the fret-work may not be of similar shape as that on later Djawa or Bali kerises. Best, Last edited by Amuk Murugul; 25th February 2011 at 06:12 AM.

19th February 2011, 04:58 PM	#2
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	David, just the first two lines in my last post were adressed to you. I thought, the rest is speaking for itself for somebody, who follows this discussion with smallest interest and attention. I wrote it just becouse you mentioned in the post before the initial reason: Barry's speculation on the hilt. This was what I could say about it. There is a clear connection with the coat of arms of Hasekura Tsunenaga for sure. Yet in he's coat of arms the arrows are pointed upwards, otherwise, when pierced through heart (in christian symbolism), downwards. Actually this is the symbol of Teresa of Avila, who was exaltated to patroness of Spain at 1617 (Hasekura was baptisised and most probably got his coat of arms at 1615). Actually he was leaving Spain in June 1617, so the 1616 on the map from wikipedia is a mistake. As for the oppinion of an expert, I think, we can doubt it or to believe it, his oppinion has more weight then ours. Moreover, he was able to examine the keris in Sendai City Museum. The possibility entire painting was done outside of Bali or Java is very, very small. The style of painting on sunggingan from Vienna (before 1608) is very similar (also W. Martowikrido mentions this). I have not seen till now better pictures of the third old sunggingan with alas-alasan in Munich, which is also in a good state of preservation. Last edited by Gustav; 19th February 2011 at 05:14 PM.

19th February 2011, 07:49 PM	#3
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	David, just one thing that interests me: which are the "most writers" which "seem to think he acquired this keris in Manila"? The only publications I am aware, which raise the question about provenance of keris and kastane is "A fundamental study on Hasekura's kastane and kris" (Bulletin of Sendai City Museum) and "The kastane and the kris, their arrival in Japan in 1620" (in Royal Armouries Yearbook, vol. 3, Leeds), both written by Sasaki Kazuhiro, curator of Sendai City Museum, in 1998. Before there are only two publications of Sendai City Museum from 1988 and 1995, and article of Wahyono Martowikrido from 1997, where this thema is not discussed. There must be articles about this keris I am not aware of. I would be very interested to learn them know. Sasaki Kazuhiro, the only writer I am aware of, which deals with this thema, has the oppinion, both keris and kastane are presented to Hasekura Tsunenaga by Philip III. Here in short he's points and other interesting details: Among the 52 mementos that Hasekura brought to Japan, only three were presented to Date clan: portrait of Pope Paul V, kastane and keris. Date Masamune drafted official letters only to Pope, the mayor of Sevilla and King Philipp III. Masamune allowed Hasekura to take care of all official contacts with dignitaries in other countries. Masamune obviously had great interest in the messages and gifts these figures bestoved on Hasekura. Then Sasaki Kazuhiro writes: "If we suppose Masamune requested only the articles from the three men he deemed most critical, then the two swords should have come from one of these three men. (...) it seems much more likely the Namban swords were a gift from Philipp III. This would also explain the reason these gifts made their way to the Masamune collection, while presents from dignitaries in other locales were allowed to remain in the Hasekura collection. (...) We find an illustration of a kris hilt on plate 8 of Plautz's book (Nova Typis Transcta Navigatio, 1621). It was presented by Philipp III to his mother-in-law, Mary of Bavaria in 1599. He married Margaret of Austria by proxy in November 1598 in Ferrara. She and her mother sailed from Genoa in February (1599) and met Philipp III in Valencia (here I must think about the part keris played in weddings of high ranked persons in Bali ). I believe Philipp presented this kris to Mary as a memento of the marriage. Philipp III had inherited a vast collection, including Asian objects from Philipp II, his father. I believe Philipp II's collection contained various krises, and that the kris presented to Mary must have been one of them. (...) Certainly, Philipp III knew Date Masamune would be pleased with the presentation of the swords, as he had been presented eight armours and one sword by Shogun Tokugawa Hidetada and the former Shogun Tokugawa Ieyasu as a sign of friendship between the two countries. Howewer, he could not present Spanish arms to Date Masamune because the presentation of Spanish arms to a foreigner was then prohibited by law." David, you wrote in #24: "The common tale seems to be that he got them in Manila. Perhaps he did get them in Spain. It doesn't really matter." Is it so?

19th February 2011, 11:53 PM	#7
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	... and this keris really IS a time machine

25th February 2011, 03:54 AM	#8
Neo Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 59	Sorry for changing the topic (I suppose Gustav and David are done with their very enriching discourse) .. This keris in good condition gives me the impression that either the non-tropical climate is better for kerises or the Japanese way of maintenance (choji oil and uchiko) is better from preservation point of view. I also bet that the keris hasn't been stained in centuries. However, seeing that the keris still has some traces of warangan, I doubt if it has seen much uchiko rubbing powder on it. Any opinion from the maintenance perspective?

14th July 2017, 07:50 AM	#10
Paul de Souza Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 66	I was surfing the forum and revisited this thread. Something just occurred to me about the keris. I have always wondered what a keris from the Malacca Sultanate or from a period close to after its conquest after 1511 to 1600 would have looked like. I think perhaps in the Sendai keris, we could be looking at a keris from the Peninsular or East Sumatra or at least acquired from that area rather than from Java or Bali. In 1618, Portugal and Spain were in a Union under one King. While they were separate kingdoms, I would expect that Spanish power in Manila would hold sway and have significant influence over Portuguese possessions in South East Asia. The Portuguese were constantly in conflict with the Malay states in the Peninsular and Sumatra, and even sometimes Allies. It would not have been difficult for the Portuguese to acquire high status keris as war booty or gifts. The Spanish, through the Portuguese, would have easy access to such keris. At the same time, the Dutch had made significant in-roads in the East Indies (Indonesia) and working very hard to exclude Catholic Spain and the Portuguese from the areas they controlled. By 1619, Batavia was established, which would mean that the Dutch were generally successful in their policy in controlling the coastal areas of Java. This would make access to Java by Spain or Portugal very difficult at the time the Japanese Envoy was in Manila. But more intriguing for me is the Kastane. Most of Sri Lanka or Ceylon was a Portuguese colony from 1597 to 1658. So it is not too surprising for the Portuguese to have acquired Kastane like the one featured and again pass it on to the Spanish. Thus seeing the two items together, hints strongly at a Portuguese origin. And if the Keris has a Portuguese origin, it is more likely that it would have come the Peninsular and East Sumatra rather than from Java and Bali. If the gifts were given by King Philip in Spain, he would have acquired them in the first from the Portuguese rather than the Dutch, which would mean a keris from the Peninsular / East Sumatra. Theoretically, Malacca and Ceylon were the Spanish King's dominions and hence logical to have items from these areas in his collection. If the Japanese envoy acquired it when he was in Manila, the possibility of a Portuguese origin is even stronger given the enmity between the Dutch and Spanish and the difficulty in accessing Dutch controlled areas in Java. So perhaps we are looking at a "Peninsular" keris instead. If it is Peninsular, it would mean that keris form and aesthetics were fairly uniform in the Malay archipelago at that time, following closely precepts set in Java and Bali; we can't help say it is Javanese or Balinese in form at first look. So perhaps the diversification of the keris into distinct regional forms that we know today came much later in the 18th century and keris in the 17th century and earlier were all Javanese/Balinese in form. Just a thought.