Pandai Saras Luk 9

BluErf · 10th February 2011, 03:05 PM

Hi Gustav,

You are going to hate me for this, but without being able to clearly articulate the defining factors, I'm going to say that the keris is most likely Pattani in origin. The hilt form is what strikes me as being very clearly Pattani. The blade too, though for a while, I was struggling to say that it is Kelantanese because of the thicker ganja. However, in the end, I think the Pattani features win out a bit more, particularly the "recessed" gandik style. The sheath is an interesting one. Some people tell me that it is the Pattani interpretation of the Riau sheath form. I don't know. This keris does have a similar look and feel to one I posted earlier - see the 2nd keris in this thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12828

Gustav · 10th February 2011, 03:52 PM

Hi Blu Erf,

thank you

I also thought about the thicker gonjo, and belalai gajah is probably not so delicat as the most from Pattani, as I understand. Could this be a hint to a later age dating?

The luk style is what seems to be more Pattani to me.

Is hilt assignation as from Pattani becouse of the elongated body?

Gustav · 10th February 2011, 04:16 PM

Your sampir is similar indeed, yet more classical, better shape. Mine seems to be "compressed" vertically, looks, like there was some lack of material at the bottom on right side. However the protruding back of gonjo balances it out, it looks after a while like intention.

What I like on mine are the two tips of sampir, really like "daun", turned a little bit more inwards.

Gustav · 11th February 2011, 11:48 PM

The wood of sampir looks softer, more large-pored then Kemuning. Yet of course I could be wrong. I wish, it would be Kemuning.

Also a picture of (desired) buntut.

Jean · 12th February 2011, 10:20 AM

Gustav,
The "Bugis cup" looks too wide for the hilt base, is it original and what should be the correct type of pendokok for this hilt?
Best regards

Gustav · 12th February 2011, 11:01 AM

Jean, it's fewer then 1 and half mm to wide. It came with this pendokok, I suppose it would be possible to regard this form as one of correct possible pendokok forms for such keris.

On hilt there are no visible traces from another pendokok.

Best regards

David · 12th February 2011, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Jean, it's fewer then 1 and half mm to wide. It came with this pendokok, I suppose it would be possible to regard this form as one of correct possible pendokok forms for such keris.

On hilt there are no visible traces from another pendokok.

Best regards

Gustav, i do not believe that this is the appropriate pendokok form for a Pattani keris. I am sure that Shahrial or Kai Wee would have some good examples to show you.

Sajen · 12th February 2011, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

The wood of sampir looks softer, more large-pored then Kemuning. Yet of course I could be wrong. I wish, it would be Kemuning.

Also a picture of (desired) buntut.

Hello Gustav,

congrats to this nice find. The sampir look to my eyes as beeing from kemuning. (So far I am able to see it by pictures. I have tried to learn the differences between kemuning and trembalo.)
The buntut you show in your picture look more buginese, I think a buntut like one from the both keris sheaths Kai Wee show in his link would look better for your keris.

Regards,

Detlef

Gustav · 12th February 2011, 09:25 PM

Hello Detlef,

thank you. About buntut you are wright.

Regards

BluErf · 22nd February 2011, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Hi Blu Erf,

thank you

I also thought about the thicker gonjo, and belalai gajah is probably not so delicat as the most from Pattani, as I understand. Could this be a hint to a later age dating?

The luk style is what seems to be more Pattani to me.

Is hilt assignation as from Pattani becouse of the elongated body?

Hi Gustav,

I don't know why I didn't see this post of yours. As to the use of the features to give an estimate of age, I must admit that I can't do it. Very often, I do it based on look and feel, and I know it is highly inaccurate given that a well-cared old blade can look 'newer' than a poorly-maintained new blade.

Pattani luks are 'awkward', not sweet and sensuous like Terengganu kerises with luks.

The hilt's longer head, angle of the head, and the relatively larger buah pinang base suggests Pattani origin.

Gustav · 8th May 2015, 09:28 PM

Afters years of owning this keris I suppose now, the blade and at least the sheath are coming from Kedah. The indicators are blade style, especially Gandhik/Belalai Gajah, and the missing, yet clearly elongated Buntut.

rasdan · 9th May 2015, 12:32 PM

Hi Gustav, congratulations on the new keris. Unfortunately I know nothing about this type of keris apart that is frequently reffered to as Pandai Saras. Perhaps it is part of sinengker knowledge in the Malay keris world.

Can somebody enlighten us here on (1) the difference between a Pattani, Kelantan and Kedah (or from any other place) and (2) how the difference/characteristics are attributed to the places? Features or combination of features that when present, we say this definitely from say, Kedah - because 90% of keris from kedah have this characteristics - for example.

Gustav · 9th May 2015, 01:16 PM

Rasdan, I am sure you have much more clues (and better reasoned) regarding styles from different Northern Malay Peninsula states then I. I like Malay Keris very much, yet I am very far from this part of world and have almost no exchange of information about these.

As I understand it at this moment, blades from Kelantan and Kedah are very similar, there are no big distinctions. I have a blade, which is surely provenanced from Kedah, and the powerful Belalai Gajah (compared to slim and gracious BG from Patani) and thicker Gonjo is very similar on my Pandai Saras.

More distincted is the sheath style from Kedah, yet I think, these variations are coming also from Perlis and Perak. Maybe one could speak of a Northern West coast style.

The quite long "foot" of the Batang of my Pandai Saras requires an elongated Buntut, and such possibility is the Buntut form from Kedah. Also there are some features in Sampir which let me think of Kedah.

rasdan · 10th May 2015, 03:26 PM

Thanks Gustav, but really I am almost clueless on this.

If we stick on the name Pandai Saras, then we probably have a smaller problem. But once we have Pandai Mamat etc and we have to differentiate between Pattani, Kelantan and Kedah I think it gets a bit more problematic.

I agree, we can say that Kedah pieces are more rough and rugged compared to Pattani and Kelantan, but in some cases, I see these rugged keris are also being attributed to Pandai Mamat which is either from Kelantan or Pattani . Then we have other Pandai too..

As for the dress, I think we can safely guess that yours are from Kedah. The buntut that you have on your keris is very interesting.

Below is a picture of a keris Pattani sorsoran from the "Senjata Pattani" facebook page which is strikingly similar to your keris.

10th February 2011, 04:16 PM	#3
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	Your sampir is similar indeed, yet more classical, better shape. Mine seems to be "compressed" vertically, looks, like there was some lack of material at the bottom on right side. However the protruding back of gonjo balances it out, it looks after a while like intention. What I like on mine are the two tips of sampir, really like "daun", turned a little bit more inwards. Last edited by Gustav; 11th February 2011 at 08:41 AM.

11th February 2011, 11:48 PM	#4
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	The wood of sampir looks softer, more large-pored then Kemuning. Yet of course I could be wrong. I wish, it would be Kemuning. Also a picture of (desired) buntut. Attached Images

10th May 2015, 03:26 PM	#14
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	Thanks Gustav, but really I am almost clueless on this. If we stick on the name Pandai Saras, then we probably have a smaller problem. But once we have Pandai Mamat etc and we have to differentiate between Pattani, Kelantan and Kedah I think it gets a bit more problematic. I agree, we can say that Kedah pieces are more rough and rugged compared to Pattani and Kelantan, but in some cases, I see these rugged keris are also being attributed to Pandai Mamat which is either from Kelantan or Pattani . Then we have other Pandai too.. As for the dress, I think we can safely guess that yours are from Kedah. The buntut that you have on your keris is very interesting. Below is a picture of a keris Pattani sorsoran from the "Senjata Pattani" facebook page which is strikingly similar to your keris. Attached Images

10th February 2011, 03:05 PM	#1
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hi Gustav, You are going to hate me for this, but without being able to clearly articulate the defining factors, I'm going to say that the keris is most likely Pattani in origin. The hilt form is what strikes me as being very clearly Pattani. The blade too, though for a while, I was struggling to say that it is Kelantanese because of the thicker ganja. However, in the end, I think the Pattani features win out a bit more, particularly the "recessed" gandik style. The sheath is an interesting one. Some people tell me that it is the Pattani interpretation of the Riau sheath form. I don't know. This keris does have a similar look and feel to one I posted earlier - see the 2nd keris in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12828

10th February 2011, 03:52 PM	#2
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	Hi Blu Erf, thank you I also thought about the thicker gonjo, and belalai gajah is probably not so delicat as the most from Pattani, as I understand. Could this be a hint to a later age dating? The luk style is what seems to be more Pattani to me. Is hilt assignation as from Pattani becouse of the elongated body?

12th February 2011, 10:20 AM	#5
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Gustav, The "Bugis cup" looks too wide for the hilt base, is it original and what should be the correct type of pendokok for this hilt? Best regards

12th February 2011, 11:01 AM	#6
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	Jean, it's fewer then 1 and half mm to wide. It came with this pendokok, I suppose it would be possible to regard this form as one of correct possible pendokok forms for such keris. On hilt there are no visible traces from another pendokok. Best regards

12th February 2011, 09:25 PM	#9
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	Hello Detlef, thank you. About buntut you are wright. Regards

8th May 2015, 09:28 PM	#11
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	Afters years of owning this keris I suppose now, the blade and at least the sheath are coming from Kedah. The indicators are blade style, especially Gandhik/Belalai Gajah, and the missing, yet clearly elongated Buntut.

9th May 2015, 12:32 PM	#12
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	Hi Gustav, congratulations on the new keris. Unfortunately I know nothing about this type of keris apart that is frequently reffered to as Pandai Saras. Perhaps it is part of sinengker knowledge in the Malay keris world. Can somebody enlighten us here on (1) the difference between a Pattani, Kelantan and Kedah (or from any other place) and (2) how the difference/characteristics are attributed to the places? Features or combination of features that when present, we say this definitely from say, Kedah - because 90% of keris from kedah have this characteristics - for example.

9th May 2015, 01:16 PM	#13
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	Rasdan, I am sure you have much more clues (and better reasoned) regarding styles from different Northern Malay Peninsula states then I. I like Malay Keris very much, yet I am very far from this part of world and have almost no exchange of information about these. As I understand it at this moment, blades from Kelantan and Kedah are very similar, there are no big distinctions. I have a blade, which is surely provenanced from Kedah, and the powerful Belalai Gajah (compared to slim and gracious BG from Patani) and thicker Gonjo is very similar on my Pandai Saras. More distincted is the sheath style from Kedah, yet I think, these variations are coming also from Perlis and Perak. Maybe one could speak of a Northern West coast style. The quite long "foot" of the Batang of my Pandai Saras requires an elongated Buntut, and such possibility is the Buntut form from Kedah. Also there are some features in Sampir which let me think of Kedah.