Metal wrapped javanese hilt

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, that was the way I read your post, but if you say that your intention was not to debate the matter, fair enough, my comment is withdrawn.

However, my position is still the same, in simple terms:-

1)-- the form of this hilt is Central Javanese.

2)-- this form has been associated with Central Jawa since at least the mid- 1700's ( see Jensen)

3)-- it is the Central Javanese form that follows Surakarta form

4)-- it may have been made anywhere

5)-- the line engraving, ( or perhaps the correct term may be incising, as the technique used does not involve cutting, and equally does not involve the embossing process, but rather is carried out by inscribing a line into the surface of the metal with a blunt tool that is pressed and drawn), is similar to that used on old Banyumas pendok; I have not seen this technique used on metal work associated with Surakarta, nor have I seen it on work that can be clearly identified as coming from other areas, but I have seen a few examples on old Jogja pendoks.

6)-- I am not putting forward an opinion on where this hilt may have been made, nor am I putting forward an opinion where it may have been worn, nor am I providing a hypothesis on the conditions under which it may have been worn. I have made a number of comments that are based upon my personal experience, and the opinion given relates to the similarity of workmanship in this hilt with the workmanship to be found in old Banyumas pendok, it also relates to the form of the hilt.

Do not interpret these very limited opinions to construe more than they are intended to construe.

[tunggulametung]

Well yes it is a discussion forum and not a debate forum but debate or let say argument is integral part of discussion so often we don't realize however it is an important aspect to build a good discussion

Great, thank you for your reply. I guess it is because from how I learn Banyumas pendok usually come in emboss work and attribute more engrave/incise to Surakarta (other than emboss) but be sure I'm telling the truth when I'm saying often lost on how they differ even though I have handle many Central Java pendoks (not that regularly though). I don't count Jogja on this statement because most of the time I'm confidence I can tell when it is Jogja.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, Solo work is certainly engraved, even though we mostly see Solo embossed pendoks, these are made for Solo, not made in Solo, the reason being purely economic, as even the lowest priced Solo engraved pendok is quite expensive.

I suspect that we're possibly getting a little bit of confusion in terminology here Tunggulametung. The Banyumas technique that I have referred to as "engraved", or "incised", you may well be thinking of in terms of "embossed".

I have seen all three of these techniques carried out. Engraving uses gravers --- little chisels --- driven by hand and hammer. Embossing uses punches driven by hammer. The Banyumas technique uses a blunt scriber that is drawn over the face of the metal and leaves a line, it does not remove metal, but leaves an impressed line.To my knowledge this technique has not been used commercially for a very long time.

However, all of this is neither here nor there:- the work on the hilt looks like Banyumas pendok work, no matter how it was done. The embossing in the cecekan panel has obviously been executed by a different technique, and it is not this work that is under discussion, but the ornamentation on the planes.

[David]

Just a word or two here on the subject gentlemen. As i see it we are clearly here to "discuss". For me at least the word "debate" implies a more aggressive approach as in debate the debater is generally trying his best to WIN his argument. I see no necessity for such a "victory" in our discussions on these boards.

[A. G. Maisey]

My point exactly David. I agree wholeheartedly.

I read Tunggulametung's post # 41 as being presented in the style of debate, he assured me that my interpretation was incorrect, and I accept his assurance.

[tunggulametung]

Thanks David, it is clear that I need to learn how to compose a better English sentences when seeking for answer/confirmation in a discussion board Again not my intention to debate or win my argument although it may sounded in such a way, I might don't realize it the time I compose my post. I apologize to Alan and all the readers should they might sounded harsh in the way they were presented.

A note for Alan:
I suspect that we're possibly getting a little bit of confusion in terminology here Tunggulametung. The Banyumas technique that I have referred to as "engraved", or "incised", you may well be thinking of in terms of "embossed".

No I understand how they differ. I'm trying to say in my previous post that I learn the way Banyumas pendok done were more in emboss and not engraved/incised but chances I get mixed with Surakarta pendok as there are many times when I can not tell how they differ. But perhaps we should save that for another discussion as we are here to discuss a hilt

Anyway, just like Alan, I think I have note down all things I know and should anybody want to suggest his opinion shall this thread back to the subject as it was first intended by the thread starter

Thank you

[A. G. Maisey]

I know that this thread is about a hilt, but it seems that we have been drawn into discussion of the different types of techniques that have been used to make pendok coming from differing locations.

I hope that the accompanying photos, although not of particularly good quality, will be adequate to illustrate the differences we have been talking about.

Photo 'A' is of four old Banyumas pendok that have had the motif applied by what I shall call incising; 'B' is a close up of one of those pendok. The technique was demonstrated to me perhaps 20 years ago by a craftsman who was well known within the keris trade and almost unknown outside the trade, a man who was the descendant of a line of craftsmen who had worked in the keris trade in Yogyakarta:- Bp. Pawirodihardjo, AKA Pak Walijo. He also identified this pendok style as Banyumas. The ones shown are poor examples of low quality, and in some cases have had the curve at the top flattened, so that they could be fitted to Surakarta wrongkos. Pak Walijo passed away some years ago, but his legacy will be with us for a long time to come.

Photo 'C' is a fair quality embossed Banyumas pendok in silver, 'D' is a close up.

Photo 'E' is a new Surakarta pendok with engraved motif, 'F' is a close up.

Photo 'G' is a Yogyakarta pendok with incised motif, 'H' is a close up.

The Banyumas pendok form, as explained to me by Pak Walijo, is similar to the Surakarta form but has a curved top and in some cases a lis (collar) fitted to that curved top.

I most earnestly hope that these photos clarify what I have been trying to explain.