eBay Toss of the Dice (NEW PICS!)

David · 5th February 2011, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danny1976

hi David,
can you please show some picture,s of the blade

I will Danny, but i want to do some work on it first, remove the cosmoline which is like a resin coating the blade and fix up the dress a bit. I am having difficulties with the hilt though. After 2 days of off and on heating the thing won't budge and i am afraid the previous owner used some serious glue to stick it.

David · 15th February 2011, 11:42 PM

OK folks, here's some quick first pictures of my preliminary renovation. I will probably take a better crack at the blade in the spring when the weather gets warmer and i can properly stain it. For now it's fine, even though i don't think i got all that nasty cosmoline off the blade yet. I finally got the hilt off and found that i needed to straighten the pesi. It could probably still go a bit straighter, but since i wasn't heating it i didn't want to go too far and snap it off. I did some minor refinishing on the scabbard and discovered that the dress is actually 3-tone as the hilt is darker than the wrongko. I was going to stain it all one tone, but have decide to leave it as is for now. I added a uwer i had lying around, not so much for the aesthetic, but more because the hilt doesn't fit all the way down and my drill bits didn't reach far enough to deepen the hole, but i think this uwer fits well.
Frankly i'm not too disappointed in the dress even though it is in the mode of what we have come to refer to as "tourist" dress. I think we have discussed this a little before, but i wonder when and for what original purpose this form of dress developed. This one is carved a little better than most and the wood is heavy and semi dense. The Kocet-Kocetan is not the worst i have ever seen. It is not a fine work of art, but it is nicely stylized and complete.
Ah, but the blade is what i took the chance on and i feel that my gamble paid off nicely. A well formed 15.5 inch gently curving 9 luk blade with deeply cut ricikan, good pamor and (BONUS!) a triangle of gold kinatah at the Bawang Sebungkul. There is also remnants of the same on the reverse side. I am not well versed on the difference in dhapur for different periods in Bali, but something tells me this might be an earlier blade. There is something about the way the features belly out at the gandik that makes me think so, but i might me off on this thought.
Anyway, enjoy the pics. I don't often post may keris, but you've all seen the eBay images and i am sure you would want to see better shots.

Atlantia · 16th February 2011, 01:18 AM

I think it looks great. What will you use to restain it when you get around to it?

David · 16th February 2011, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

I think it looks great. What will you use to restain it when you get around to it?

Warangan....Arsenic and lime.

Rick · 16th February 2011, 03:28 AM

Doesn't look like it needs a re-staining, David ..

Or are you just that good w/Photoshop, Bro ?

Looks old !

David · 16th February 2011, 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Doesn't look like it needs a re-staining, David ..

Or are you just that good w/Photoshop, Bro ?

Looks old !

Maybe not for now. As i said, some of the cosmoline remains and at the very least i need to get that off. The current stain isn't too bad, but it is uneven, especially around the edges as i don't think this has pamor wengkon...

Not bad for 60 bucks, eh?

Rick · 16th February 2011, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Maybe not for now. As i said, some of the cosmoline remains and at the very least i need to get that off. The current stain isn't too bad, but it is uneven, especially around the edges as i don't think this has pamor wengkon...

Not bad for 60 bucks, eh?

Not bad at all !

Isn't wengkon an unbroken line standing back from the edge of the slorok following the entire profile of the blade ?

Whatever the pamor; it is delightful .

Atlantia · 16th February 2011, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Warangan....Arsenic and lime.

LOL, I was assuming that there was an alternative to arsenic!
Is it available to the public in the USA?

David · 16th February 2011, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

LOL, I was assuming that there was an alternative to arsenic!
Is it available to the public in the USA?

Many people have tried alternative, some more successful than others, but i am of the opinion that the traditional method is indeed the best.
I got some arsenic trioxide pre-9/11. It wasn't too difficult, or maybe i just got lucky. I had to find a company that was capable of buying from the big lab companies and found one local to me that was willing to do it for me. The rules may be stricter today, but i still have a fair supply available as a little goes a long way.

David · 16th February 2011, 07:43 PM

I knew i had one more image that i wanted to post, a close-up of the hilt. Again, no great work of art, but it does adhere to the basic form well clearly showing all the little insect bits, legs, antennae and wings that we should see on the kocet-kocetan hilt.

GIO · 19th February 2011, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

LOL, I was assuming that there was an alternative to arsenic!
Is it available to the public in the USA?

I also use warangan, but was told that somebody gets very good results with iron chloride (or iron sulphur ?). I Don't remember well, sorry. I have seen a couple of blades etched this way and the result was perfect.
Maybe other friends are better informed.

A. G. Maisey · 20th February 2011, 02:30 AM

OK --- right spot:-

Yes David, I am aware of your high level of knowledge of cultural and historic background in respect of matters affecting the keris, however, although my response is addressed to you, it has been written for all those people who read our discussions here, and many, if not most of those people do not possess a similar level knowledge to yourself.

Yes, collectors do have their own sets of values, which tend to vary according to the base from which that group of collectors has sprung. Very often I find that the values of collectors are directed at the idea and culture of "collecting", rather than the ideas and culture which pertain to the objects that they collect. This remark is not exclusive to the collecting of the keris, but can also be identified in many other fields of collecting.

Regarding the slightly rounded form of the gandhik, I have seen this in a number of keris from both Jawa and Bali, and from various eras. I personally read it as stylistic variation that does not necessarily attach to any particular era or classification, but may be indicative of the work of a particular maker. In fact, in one of the keris that I made myself, I attempted a similar treatment of the gandhik, but it was not particularly successful.

Incidentally, the sogokan in the first keris you have shown from the Oriental Arms source appears to have everything that a well executed sogokan should have. This is very nice work.

Atlantia · 20th February 2011, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GIO

I also use warangan, but was told that somebody gets very good results with iron chloride (or iron sulphur ?). I Don't remember well, sorry. I have seen a couple of blades etched this way and the result was perfect.
Maybe other friends are better informed.

Hi Gio,

Iron Chloride would be a much safer option. Thanks for the info.
Best
Gene

asomotif · 16th February 2011, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Warangan....Arsenic and lime.

Hello David,

A very nice blade. the dress is not my style, but looks like a harmonious ensemble.

But why stain the blade ?
This looks like a bali stain to me. Are you able to get the same effect by restaining it ? Or will you create a javanese rough surface stain ?

IMO, I would leave it and keep it well oiled.

Best regards,
Willem

David · 16th February 2011, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

But why stain the blade ?
This looks like a bali stain to me. Are you able to get the same effect by restaining it ? Or will you create a javanese rough surface stain ?

IMO, I would leave it and keep it well oiled.

I do address this question in posts #15, 17 and 20 and the bottom lineis that i might very well just leave it as is.

To answer your other question i have indeed managed to stain Bali blades in the past and maintain a fairly smooth and polished appearance on the surface. If i were to stain this blade i would certain attempt to maintain the finish in this manner.
If you look at the very first image of the blade close-up you can see a discoloring of the blade. I think this is the remains of the cosmoline which completely covered this blade when i received it. So at the very least it is due for another bath in some mineral spirits down the line.
As for the dress i'd have to say that it would not be most people's style per se. But considering the price (and the fact that it of a higher quality than most of it's ilk) i think i can learn to live with it...

15th February 2011, 11:42 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	OK folks, here's some quick first pictures of my preliminary renovation. I will probably take a better crack at the blade in the spring when the weather gets warmer and i can properly stain it. For now it's fine, even though i don't think i got all that nasty cosmoline off the blade yet. I finally got the hilt off and found that i needed to straighten the pesi. It could probably still go a bit straighter, but since i wasn't heating it i didn't want to go too far and snap it off. I did some minor refinishing on the scabbard and discovered that the dress is actually 3-tone as the hilt is darker than the wrongko. I was going to stain it all one tone, but have decide to leave it as is for now. I added a uwer i had lying around, not so much for the aesthetic, but more because the hilt doesn't fit all the way down and my drill bits didn't reach far enough to deepen the hole, but i think this uwer fits well. Frankly i'm not too disappointed in the dress even though it is in the mode of what we have come to refer to as "tourist" dress. I think we have discussed this a little before, but i wonder when and for what original purpose this form of dress developed. This one is carved a little better than most and the wood is heavy and semi dense. The Kocet-Kocetan is not the worst i have ever seen. It is not a fine work of art, but it is nicely stylized and complete. Ah, but the blade is what i took the chance on and i feel that my gamble paid off nicely. A well formed 15.5 inch gently curving 9 luk blade with deeply cut ricikan, good pamor and (BONUS!) a triangle of gold kinatah at the Bawang Sebungkul. There is also remnants of the same on the reverse side. I am not well versed on the difference in dhapur for different periods in Bali, but something tells me this might be an earlier blade. There is something about the way the features belly out at the gandik that makes me think so, but i might me off on this thought. Anyway, enjoy the pics. I don't often post may keris, but you've all seen the eBay images and i am sure you would want to see better shots. Attached Images

16th February 2011, 07:43 PM	#10
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	I knew i had one more image that i wanted to post, a close-up of the hilt. Again, no great work of art, but it does adhere to the basic form well clearly showing all the little insect bits, legs, antennae and wings that we should see on the kocet-kocetan hilt. Attached Images

16th February 2011, 01:18 AM	#3
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I think it looks great. What will you use to restain it when you get around to it?

16th February 2011, 03:28 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Doesn't look like it needs a re-staining, David .. Or are you just that good w/Photoshop, Bro ? Looks old !

20th February 2011, 02:30 AM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	OK --- right spot:- Yes David, I am aware of your high level of knowledge of cultural and historic background in respect of matters affecting the keris, however, although my response is addressed to you, it has been written for all those people who read our discussions here, and many, if not most of those people do not possess a similar level knowledge to yourself. Yes, collectors do have their own sets of values, which tend to vary according to the base from which that group of collectors has sprung. Very often I find that the values of collectors are directed at the idea and culture of "collecting", rather than the ideas and culture which pertain to the objects that they collect. This remark is not exclusive to the collecting of the keris, but can also be identified in many other fields of collecting. Regarding the slightly rounded form of the gandhik, I have seen this in a number of keris from both Jawa and Bali, and from various eras. I personally read it as stylistic variation that does not necessarily attach to any particular era or classification, but may be indicative of the work of a particular maker. In fact, in one of the keris that I made myself, I attempted a similar treatment of the gandhik, but it was not particularly successful. Incidentally, the sogokan in the first keris you have shown from the Oriental Arms source appears to have everything that a well executed sogokan should have. This is very nice work.