And Yet Another Bolo

Lew · 3rd February 2011, 03:37 PM

Some how this does not strike me as a late 1800s piece seems newer 1930s-45 I would think?

Robert · 3rd February 2011, 07:50 PM

Hello Richard, I believe that bolo is a kind of a covers all name. While a talibon has chisel ground blade and is from the Visayans the one that I posted above has a V ground blade and from Luzon. I do believe however that it would be acceptable to call a talibon a bolo. I'm not sure if the correct name for the item that I posted would be an Itak or Matulis? If I am incorrect with my explanation I am sure that someone with a better understanding of the correct terms for these will correct me.

Lew, As far as age goes I am was only going by the information that I received from the seller. If it is true or not, who knows for sure?

I have seen this style of knife/sword before that were attributed to the late 1890s but who knows for sure if they were dated correctly? Thank you both for your interest and comments.

Robert

Battara · 4th February 2011, 12:02 AM

I think that some would call this an itak. Bolo works as well though.

The Talibon however has a pronounced "bellie", chiseled edge, and the hilt varies, but often of a particular shape, especially the early ones.

Rick · 4th February 2011, 01:19 AM

Robert, I had one of these that was provenanced to that era; it was in pretty good shape like yours .
It came with two other pieces that were definitely of the proper age .
So it's a possibility .

Bill M. wound up with them .

(that's not pitting; it's a crudely forged pattern welded blade)

migueldiaz · 4th February 2011, 03:15 AM

robert, thanks for sharing the pics and the probable history of the bolo! (and i for one will always be excited at looking at your bolo pics).

i too am of the opinion that it is from the phil-am war era.

i just came from the boondocks of cebu island in central philippines. i was able to interview the heirs of pulahan 'insurgents' who fought the americans the longest during the said war. the old folks i interviewed were the very grandchildren of the pulahan 'rebels' vic hurley wrote about in jungle patrol.

if somebody from cebu normal university is reading this, thanks by the way for the kind assistance in making the research possible.

during the trip i was able to see: (a) a new cebu sundang [see pic of the lone blade i'm holding]; (b) several antique sundangs [the trio, plus the one on the waist of the old lady], and (c) an antique talibong of the same age as "b" [am still thinking whether i can show the pic, as they were wary initially of showing it to me, being an outsider].

but first, a word on terminologies of phil. swords, which tend to get confusing always (and this list below pertains just to central cebu highlands, as other regions may have minor variations in their use of the terms) --

sundang - refers to any work bolo that one carries everyday for work to the field

(and bolo is a generic term for any philippine utility blade or war sword, especially those found in northern philippines [commonly called 'luzon')] and in central philippines [a group of many islands commonly called the 'visayas'])

pinuti or talibong or sabli (these three are the same) - refers to the same basic bolo design as the sundang, but the piece is kept inside the house, for use in case of conflicts only

pinuti's [pee-NOO-tee] root word is puti [poo-TEE], or white. and it's called pinuti because the blade's entire surface is always polished and the blade always kept sharp, being a prized possession.

talibong [TAH-lee-bong, as in gong] is derived from the word to kill or destroy, as far as i recall when i checked an online cebuano dictionary.

sabli [SAHB-lee] is derived from the spanish word for saber, sable.

based on the samples i saw, the difference between a sundang and a pinuti/talibong/sabli (p/t/s) are - (a) the sundang is always a little shorter; (b) the sundang's cutting edge is the only one that is 'white' (i.e., shiny), while for a p/t/s, the whole blade glistens, thus 'pinuti', or literally made white and shiny; (c) even though a p/t/s is very old, it still looks fresh compared to a sundang of the same age, and that's because the p/t/s is not exposed to the elements and not often used; and (d) the p/t/s's hilt and scabbard are much more ornately carved than a sundang.

i guess i'm going all over the place

but back to the topic on assessing a sword's age based on external appearance, i have no doubt as to lew's and to the others' skill in making an assessment.

my only point is that if the sword is well-kept and based on my recent personal observations, a very old philippine sword can indeed maintain its almost pristine look when it is looked after very well.

i always remember what nonoy tan told me when he was allowed to take a look at the smithsonian's antique bolo collection. nonoy said that if one didn't know anything about when the sword was collected, one would be fooled into thinking that they were all recently made.

Robert · 4th February 2011, 04:01 AM

Rick, Thank you very much for your thoughts and the pictures. I just wish that I had known that you were parting with the three that you show in the picture as I would have loved to have added them to my own collection.

Migueldiaz, Thank you very much for your insight into the names and for the pictures of the Cebu Island highlands edged weapons and the links. As usual I have copied this for later reference. I particularly like the photo of the "young lady" and wonder how long that she has had and used the sundang that she is carrying? One last thing, could you email me a copy of the one picture that you did not post as I would be very interested in seeing it.

Here is another acquisition of mine that has not arrived yet. The pictures are from the auction site. I have not seen a hilt like this one before so any information on it would be greatly appreciated. I would guess that it is from Luzon even though I do not know if the tang extends completely through the hilt or not "as it is not shown clearly enough in the pictures to tell for sure". All I know is that the blade is 18-1/4 inches long and supposedly about 3/8 of an inch thick at the hilt so I would imagine that the total length would be around 23 inches. I also wonder if it might not have had a metal collar around the grip right behind the guard a some point in time? Again my thanks to everyone for their help.

Robert

migueldiaz · 4th February 2011, 12:04 PM

Robert, thanks for the comments.

Your new sword looks like it's chisel-ground (thus, Visayan as we all know). I have a sword with a similar blade profile, which is also Visayan (pic is below).

As for the hilt, there's a Visayan blade (Samar to be exact) in Krieger's catalogue with a similar form:

"Plate 13 -- Hand weapons for cutting, piercing, and stabbing: Knives and daggers. No. 1. Dagger; triangular sectioned, curved, and pointed blade; single cutting edge; carved wood handle. Quinapundar, Samar Island."

As an aside, triangular sectioned means that it's the dreaded tres cantos (three corners), as we call it locally. Is it true that such blade cross-section was banned by the Geneva Convention, as it's very hard to sew up the wound created? Heard this from an expert Pawn Stars got, in one episode

As for the "young lady", she said that her sundang has been with her for the last 50 to 60 years or so. That's also one thing I noticed in the area -- the sundang they got when they were in their teens and twenties continue to be the ones they use up to now.

Thus through years of grinding, the blades' present width compared with the scabbard width has a huge disparity by this time (see pic).

carlos · 4th February 2011, 04:34 PM

Here is another acquisition of mine that has not arrived yet. The pictures are from the auction site. I have not seen a hilt like this one before so any information on it would be greatly appreciated. I would guess that it is from Luzon even though I do not know if the tang extends completely through the hilt or not "as it is not shown clearly enough in the pictures to tell for sure". All I know is that the blade is 18-1/4 inches long and supposedly about 3/8 of an inch thick at the hilt so I would imagine that the total length would be around 23 inches. I also wonder if it might not have had a metal collar around the grip right behind the guard a some point in time? Again my thanks to everyone for their help.

Robert[/QUOTE]

Hello Robert!!
Congratulations for this pair of beauties!! I have one knife with a hit similar to your second adquisition, But whe I bought it seller only tell me that was african

I wish you enjoy this weapons and thanks for the post!1
best regards
carlos

4th February 2011, 01:19 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Robert, I had one of these that was provenanced to that era; it was in pretty good shape like yours . It came with two other pieces that were definitely of the proper age . So it's a possibility . Bill M. wound up with them . (that's not pitting; it's a crudely forged pattern welded blade) Attached Images

4th February 2011, 03:15 AM	#5
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	robert, thanks for sharing the pics and the probable history of the bolo! (and i for one will always be excited at looking at your bolo pics). i too am of the opinion that it is from the phil-am war era. i just came from the boondocks of cebu island in central philippines. i was able to interview the heirs of pulahan 'insurgents' who fought the americans the longest during the said war. the old folks i interviewed were the very grandchildren of the pulahan 'rebels' vic hurley wrote about in jungle patrol. if somebody from cebu normal university is reading this, thanks by the way for the kind assistance in making the research possible. during the trip i was able to see: (a) a new cebu sundang [see pic of the lone blade i'm holding]; (b) several antique sundangs [the trio, plus the one on the waist of the old lady], and (c) an antique talibong of the same age as "b" [am still thinking whether i can show the pic, as they were wary initially of showing it to me, being an outsider]. but first, a word on terminologies of phil. swords, which tend to get confusing always (and this list below pertains just to central cebu highlands, as other regions may have minor variations in their use of the terms) -- sundang - refers to any work bolo that one carries everyday for work to the field (and bolo is a generic term for any philippine utility blade or war sword, especially those found in northern philippines [commonly called 'luzon')] and in central philippines [a group of many islands commonly called the 'visayas']) pinuti or talibong or sabli (these three are the same) - refers to the same basic bolo design as the sundang, but the piece is kept inside the house, for use in case of conflicts only pinuti's [pee-NOO-tee] root word is puti [poo-TEE], or white. and it's called pinuti because the blade's entire surface is always polished and the blade always kept sharp, being a prized possession. talibong [TAH-lee-bong, as in gong] is derived from the word to kill or destroy, as far as i recall when i checked an online cebuano dictionary. sabli [SAHB-lee] is derived from the spanish word for saber, sable. based on the samples i saw, the difference between a sundang and a pinuti/talibong/sabli (p/t/s) are - (a) the sundang is always a little shorter; (b) the sundang's cutting edge is the only one that is 'white' (i.e., shiny), while for a p/t/s, the whole blade glistens, thus 'pinuti', or literally made white and shiny; (c) even though a p/t/s is very old, it still looks fresh compared to a sundang of the same age, and that's because the p/t/s is not exposed to the elements and not often used; and (d) the p/t/s's hilt and scabbard are much more ornately carved than a sundang. i guess i'm going all over the place but back to the topic on assessing a sword's age based on external appearance, i have no doubt as to lew's and to the others' skill in making an assessment. my only point is that if the sword is well-kept and based on my recent personal observations, a very old philippine sword can indeed maintain its almost pristine look when it is looked after very well. i always remember what nonoy tan told me when he was allowed to take a look at the smithsonian's antique bolo collection. nonoy said that if one didn't know anything about when the sword was collected, one would be fooled into thinking that they were all recently made. Attached Images

4th February 2011, 04:01 AM	#6
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Rick, Thank you very much for your thoughts and the pictures. I just wish that I had known that you were parting with the three that you show in the picture as I would have loved to have added them to my own collection. Migueldiaz, Thank you very much for your insight into the names and for the pictures of the Cebu Island highlands edged weapons and the links. As usual I have copied this for later reference. I particularly like the photo of the "young lady" and wonder how long that she has had and used the sundang that she is carrying? One last thing, could you email me a copy of the one picture that you did not post as I would be very interested in seeing it. Here is another acquisition of mine that has not arrived yet. The pictures are from the auction site. I have not seen a hilt like this one before so any information on it would be greatly appreciated. I would guess that it is from Luzon even though I do not know if the tang extends completely through the hilt or not "as it is not shown clearly enough in the pictures to tell for sure". All I know is that the blade is 18-1/4 inches long and supposedly about 3/8 of an inch thick at the hilt so I would imagine that the total length would be around 23 inches. I also wonder if it might not have had a metal collar around the grip right behind the guard a some point in time? Again my thanks to everyone for their help. Robert Attached Images Last edited by Robert Coleman; 4th February 2011 at 07:23 AM.

4th February 2011, 12:04 PM	#7
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Robert, thanks for the comments. Your new sword looks like it's chisel-ground (thus, Visayan as we all know). I have a sword with a similar blade profile, which is also Visayan (pic is below). As for the hilt, there's a Visayan blade (Samar to be exact) in Krieger's catalogue with a similar form: "Plate 13 -- Hand weapons for cutting, piercing, and stabbing: Knives and daggers. No. 1. Dagger; triangular sectioned, curved, and pointed blade; single cutting edge; carved wood handle. Quinapundar, Samar Island." As an aside, triangular sectioned means that it's the dreaded tres cantos (three corners), as we call it locally. Is it true that such blade cross-section was banned by the Geneva Convention, as it's very hard to sew up the wound created? Heard this from an expert Pawn Stars got, in one episode As for the "young lady", she said that her sundang has been with her for the last 50 to 60 years or so. That's also one thing I noticed in the area -- the sundang they got when they were in their teens and twenties continue to be the ones they use up to now. Thus through years of grinding, the blades' present width compared with the scabbard width has a huge disparity by this time (see pic). Attached Images

4th February 2011, 04:34 PM	#8
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 755	Here is another acquisition of mine that has not arrived yet. The pictures are from the auction site. I have not seen a hilt like this one before so any information on it would be greatly appreciated. I would guess that it is from Luzon even though I do not know if the tang extends completely through the hilt or not "as it is not shown clearly enough in the pictures to tell for sure". All I know is that the blade is 18-1/4 inches long and supposedly about 3/8 of an inch thick at the hilt so I would imagine that the total length would be around 23 inches. I also wonder if it might not have had a metal collar around the grip right behind the guard a some point in time? Again my thanks to everyone for their help. Robert[/QUOTE] Hello Robert!! Congratulations for this pair of beauties!! I have one knife with a hit similar to your second adquisition, But whe I bought it seller only tell me that was african I wish you enjoy this weapons and thanks for the post!1 best regards carlos Attached Images

3rd February 2011, 03:37 PM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Some how this does not strike me as a late 1800s piece seems newer 1930s-45 I would think?

3rd February 2011, 07:50 PM	#2
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Richard, I believe that bolo is a kind of a covers all name. While a talibon has chisel ground blade and is from the Visayans the one that I posted above has a V ground blade and from Luzon. I do believe however that it would be acceptable to call a talibon a bolo. I'm not sure if the correct name for the item that I posted would be an Itak or Matulis? If I am incorrect with my explanation I am sure that someone with a better understanding of the correct terms for these will correct me. Lew, As far as age goes I am was only going by the information that I received from the seller. If it is true or not, who knows for sure? I have seen this style of knife/sword before that were attributed to the late 1890s but who knows for sure if they were dated correctly? Thank you both for your interest and comments. Robert

4th February 2011, 12:02 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,310	I think that some would call this an itak. Bolo works as well though. The Talibon however has a pronounced "bellie", chiseled edge, and the hilt varies, but often of a particular shape, especially the early ones.