Metal wrapped javanese hilt

Sajen · 31st January 2011, 01:48 PM

Hello Alan,

you are right, I have used the term yudowinatan a little bit frivolous, maybe because it was used before in this thread. I am aware that there a lot different planar handle forms from Surakarta (such as: yudowinatan, canteng, dan longok and others). I have a small collection of different planar handle and when you see them side by side you can see they are different but I am not able to name them. Alongside there are also planar handle from East Java and Banyumasan with the same style. Maybe it will be nice to start one day a own thread about the different planar handle styles.

So I try to couch my description of this handle new: "A metal wrapped planar Central Javanese (most probable Surakarta) handle likely made in Cirebon."

Best regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 1st February 2011, 03:56 AM

Detlef, I am not out to start any sort of controversy in respect of origin of this hilt, I am only putting forward for consideration that which I can see.

In respect of the form, there is no doubt at all that it is a Central Javanese form, however, design and execution of detail do vary from what we are used to seeing in a Surakarta hilt.

What catches my eye with the execution is the combination of embossing and engraving. The engraving is remarkable similar to the style that we often find in old Banyumas pendoks. Very different to both Surakarta and Ngayogyakarta, and nothing at all like the workmanship that can positively be associated with the North Coast.

The embossing is fine, and again, nothing like what we are used to seeing from the North Coast.

Bearing in mind the fact that Banyumas did in fact use a planar hilt form, I feel that this is a point of origin that does bear some consideration.

Sajen · 1st February 2011, 03:23 PM

Detlef, I am not out to start any sort of controversy in respect of origin of this hilt, I am only putting forward for consideration that which I can see.

I am far away to think like this and I welcome your comment!

Sajen · 1st February 2011, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In respect of the form, there is no doubt at all that it is a Central Javanese form, however, design and execution of detail do vary from what we are used to seeing in a Surakarta hilt.

What catches my eye with the execution is the combination of embossing and engraving. The engraving is remarkable similar to the style that we often find in old Banyumas pendoks. Very different to both Surakarta and Ngayogyakarta, and nothing at all like the workmanship that can positively be associated with the North Coast.

The embossing is fine, and again, nothing like what we are used to seeing from the North Coast.

Bearing in mind the fact that Banyumas did in fact use a planar hilt form, I feel that this is a point of origin that does bear some consideration.

Hello Alan,

thank you very much for this comment. Since I know that you have seen so much more than I am and have a very good eye for the different styles seems this to be a very good hint for the origin of this hilt. And we know that the ways a keris or parts of it (here a hilt) has gone in it's life can be long it isn't very surprising that this hilt is collect at the North Coast of Java in my opinion, isn't it?

Regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 2nd February 2011, 04:57 AM

Where things are collected, most especially keris, cannot be taken as an indication at all of where they were made.

Extreme examples are the keris and pedang and dagger blades that were shipped as items of trade from Jawa to places as far removed as Sri Lanka and India, in the 15th century.

Less extreme examples are the keris blades that have been made in various centers of production since the 18th century and sold in various places right across maritime SE Asia.

What applies to blades can equally apply to items of dress.

tunggulametung · 2nd February 2011, 01:48 PM

I think we can be sure that this particular hilt is collected in Cirebon but as Alan suggested, it might be coming from somewhere else even it is equally possible to be made over there. Banyumas is notable for their silverwork? keris perabot so that might be highly possible as well. The western approximate of modern day Central Java has both influences from Javanese/Sundanese culture. I attached a map so those who isn't familiar with the region might understand what we are talking in here. The question is then once Sunda region is Islamized, what hilt are they wear at wedding and other ceremonies? Raksasa hilt? not likely. Stylized hilt? Maybe, in the 17-19 c. They might keep it as pusaka, or still being made as personal keris hilt, but for public gathering? Those KILTV photos shows a little how nunggak semi hilt is popular in Sunda as early as 19 c. Detlef, I must say I'm not sure where it is made, it might be as far as Banten to Surakarta, so I'm sorry you might consider to change the hilt naming once again

Don't forget we have pesisiran Jawa Demam examples as well as Bebondolan and its old style wide gayaman, so influences stretch from Sumatra to Bali; so what make Central Java influence not possible in this case.

I don't know how to put it in English but:
Sometime unavailability is not because it is not existed but because it is not know

my two cents opinion

Sajen · 2nd February 2011, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Detlef, I must say I'm not sure where it is made, it might be as far as Banten to Surakarta, so I'm sorry you might consider to change the hilt naming once again

Dear Chandra,

tidak ada masalah! (no problem)

Amuk Murugul · 3rd February 2011, 06:36 AM

Hullo everybody,

Interesting post .....
I would start with trying to determine when and where that type of grip was created. That would give me a clue as to whether it was Soenda or Djawa in origin and whether one culture influenced the other in producing this style.

One musn't forget, as many would argue, that at some time in the past Tatar Soenda south of Mt. Merapi, extended to the western banks of the river Progo (thereby easily taking in Banjoemas).
BTW ..... Banjoemasan is not hard to understand by someone who is fluent in Basa Soenda, which may point to some sort of 'cross-pollination'.

Best,

1st February 2011, 03:23 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,420	Detlef, I am not out to start any sort of controversy in respect of origin of this hilt, I am only putting forward for consideration that which I can see. I am far away to think like this and I welcome your comment! Last edited by Sajen; 1st February 2011 at 03:33 PM.

2nd February 2011, 01:48 PM	#6
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	I think we can be sure that this particular hilt is collected in Cirebon but as Alan suggested, it might be coming from somewhere else even it is equally possible to be made over there. Banyumas is notable for their silverwork? keris perabot so that might be highly possible as well. The western approximate of modern day Central Java has both influences from Javanese/Sundanese culture. I attached a map so those who isn't familiar with the region might understand what we are talking in here. The question is then once Sunda region is Islamized, what hilt are they wear at wedding and other ceremonies? Raksasa hilt? not likely. Stylized hilt? Maybe, in the 17-19 c. They might keep it as pusaka, or still being made as personal keris hilt, but for public gathering? Those KILTV photos shows a little how nunggak semi hilt is popular in Sunda as early as 19 c. Detlef, I must say I'm not sure where it is made, it might be as far as Banten to Surakarta, so I'm sorry you might consider to change the hilt naming once again Don't forget we have pesisiran Jawa Demam examples as well as Bebondolan and its old style wide gayaman, so influences stretch from Sumatra to Bali; so what make Central Java influence not possible in this case. I don't know how to put it in English but: Sometime unavailability is not because it is not existed but because it is not know my two cents opinion Attached Images

3rd February 2011, 06:36 AM	#8
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 474	Hullo everybody, Interesting post ..... I would start with trying to determine when and where that type of grip was created. That would give me a clue as to whether it was Soenda or Djawa in origin and whether one culture influenced the other in producing this style. One musn't forget, as many would argue, that at some time in the past Tatar Soenda south of Mt. Merapi, extended to the western banks of the river Progo (thereby easily taking in Banjoemas). BTW ..... Banjoemasan is not hard to understand by someone who is fluent in Basa Soenda, which may point to some sort of 'cross-pollination'. Best, Last edited by Amuk Murugul; 4th February 2011 at 03:57 AM.

31st January 2011, 01:48 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,420	Hello Alan, you are right, I have used the term yudowinatan a little bit frivolous, maybe because it was used before in this thread. I am aware that there a lot different planar handle forms from Surakarta (such as: yudowinatan, canteng, dan longok and others). I have a small collection of different planar handle and when you see them side by side you can see they are different but I am not able to name them. Alongside there are also planar handle from East Java and Banyumasan with the same style. Maybe it will be nice to start one day a own thread about the different planar handle styles. So I try to couch my description of this handle new: "A metal wrapped planar Central Javanese (most probable Surakarta) handle likely made in Cirebon." Best regards, Detlef

1st February 2011, 03:56 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Detlef, I am not out to start any sort of controversy in respect of origin of this hilt, I am only putting forward for consideration that which I can see. In respect of the form, there is no doubt at all that it is a Central Javanese form, however, design and execution of detail do vary from what we are used to seeing in a Surakarta hilt. What catches my eye with the execution is the combination of embossing and engraving. The engraving is remarkable similar to the style that we often find in old Banyumas pendoks. Very different to both Surakarta and Ngayogyakarta, and nothing at all like the workmanship that can positively be associated with the North Coast. The embossing is fine, and again, nothing like what we are used to seeing from the North Coast. Bearing in mind the fact that Banyumas did in fact use a planar hilt form, I feel that this is a point of origin that does bear some consideration.

2nd February 2011, 04:57 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Where things are collected, most especially keris, cannot be taken as an indication at all of where they were made. Extreme examples are the keris and pedang and dagger blades that were shipped as items of trade from Jawa to places as far removed as Sri Lanka and India, in the 15th century. Less extreme examples are the keris blades that have been made in various centers of production since the 18th century and sold in various places right across maritime SE Asia. What applies to blades can equally apply to items of dress.