Metal wrapped javanese hilt

tunggulametung · 29th January 2011, 09:10 PM

More pictures... Raden Adipati Wira with his amazing collection and (once mine) carved horn hilt which is said coming from Cirebon (or surrounding

).

Sajen · 30th January 2011, 03:10 PM

Hello Chandra,

thank you very much for your detailed post and the very interesting pictures.

I will describe my hilt as a Cirebon yudowinatan hilt.

What catch my eyes are the collection from Raden Adipati Wira. The keris he wear in the first picture and is shown at the second picture in the middle again. The wrongko is typical Cirebon/Tegal but the handle is normally attributed to Sumatra/Kariman Djawa. Also the wrongko at the fourth picture on the left side is in the form of Palembang sheaths but it is not the first time that I have heard that this for is also common for Cirebon. This all shows again that the affinity between Java/Cirebon and Sumatra is very very close.

Thank you again and kind regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 31st January 2011, 04:49 AM

Detlef, there are a number of planar hilt forms, and the differences between them are very, very slight, one really needs to be a tukang jejeran with a family background in the craft to reliably differentiate between the various forms.

The Surakarta yudowinatan form is only one of many of the Surakarta planar hilt forms, but one thing is absolutely certain:- we cannot call this metal hilt "yudowinatan", because of its non-conforming cecekan --- apart from anything else.

In spite of Tunggalametung's interesting offering of photographs, I am afraid that I am unable to move from my opinion that this hilt form is a Central Javanese form, and very probably Surakarta --- but I am not saying here that it was made in Surakarta.

I base my seeming inflexibility on the fact that a photograph in the absence of context does not really demonstrate very much.

If we knew the time, place and circumstances of these photos, we may be able to use what we can see as some sort of evidence of something, but when we take into account the somewhat convoluted dress rules surrounding what was and what was not acceptable in defined circumstances we really are facing a probably insurmountable puzzle.

With all things Javanese there is a difficulty in interpreting anything that is seen, or heard, that can only be overcome with a complete understanding of the circumstances surrounding that which is seen or heard.

Sajen · 31st January 2011, 12:48 PM

Hello Alan,

you are right, I have used the term yudowinatan a little bit frivolous, maybe because it was used before in this thread. I am aware that there a lot different planar handle forms from Surakarta (such as: yudowinatan, canteng, dan longok and others). I have a small collection of different planar handle and when you see them side by side you can see they are different but I am not able to name them. Alongside there are also planar handle from East Java and Banyumasan with the same style. Maybe it will be nice to start one day a own thread about the different planar handle styles.

So I try to couch my description of this handle new: "A metal wrapped planar Central Javanese (most probable Surakarta) handle likely made in Cirebon."

Best regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 1st February 2011, 02:56 AM

Detlef, I am not out to start any sort of controversy in respect of origin of this hilt, I am only putting forward for consideration that which I can see.

In respect of the form, there is no doubt at all that it is a Central Javanese form, however, design and execution of detail do vary from what we are used to seeing in a Surakarta hilt.

What catches my eye with the execution is the combination of embossing and engraving. The engraving is remarkable similar to the style that we often find in old Banyumas pendoks. Very different to both Surakarta and Ngayogyakarta, and nothing at all like the workmanship that can positively be associated with the North Coast.

The embossing is fine, and again, nothing like what we are used to seeing from the North Coast.

Bearing in mind the fact that Banyumas did in fact use a planar hilt form, I feel that this is a point of origin that does bear some consideration.

Sajen · 1st February 2011, 02:23 PM

Detlef, I am not out to start any sort of controversy in respect of origin of this hilt, I am only putting forward for consideration that which I can see.

I am far away to think like this and I welcome your comment!

Sajen · 1st February 2011, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In respect of the form, there is no doubt at all that it is a Central Javanese form, however, design and execution of detail do vary from what we are used to seeing in a Surakarta hilt.

What catches my eye with the execution is the combination of embossing and engraving. The engraving is remarkable similar to the style that we often find in old Banyumas pendoks. Very different to both Surakarta and Ngayogyakarta, and nothing at all like the workmanship that can positively be associated with the North Coast.

The embossing is fine, and again, nothing like what we are used to seeing from the North Coast.

Bearing in mind the fact that Banyumas did in fact use a planar hilt form, I feel that this is a point of origin that does bear some consideration.

Hello Alan,

thank you very much for this comment. Since I know that you have seen so much more than I am and have a very good eye for the different styles seems this to be a very good hint for the origin of this hilt. And we know that the ways a keris or parts of it (here a hilt) has gone in it's life can be long it isn't very surprising that this hilt is collect at the North Coast of Java in my opinion, isn't it?

Regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 2nd February 2011, 03:57 AM

Where things are collected, most especially keris, cannot be taken as an indication at all of where they were made.

Extreme examples are the keris and pedang and dagger blades that were shipped as items of trade from Jawa to places as far removed as Sri Lanka and India, in the 15th century.

Less extreme examples are the keris blades that have been made in various centers of production since the 18th century and sold in various places right across maritime SE Asia.

What applies to blades can equally apply to items of dress.

29th January 2011, 09:10 PM	#1
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	More pictures... Raden Adipati Wira with his amazing collection and (once mine) carved horn hilt which is said coming from Cirebon (or surrounding ). Attached Images

1st February 2011, 02:23 PM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Detlef, I am not out to start any sort of controversy in respect of origin of this hilt, I am only putting forward for consideration that which I can see. I am far away to think like this and I welcome your comment! Last edited by Sajen; 1st February 2011 at 02:33 PM.

30th January 2011, 03:10 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Hello Chandra, thank you very much for your detailed post and the very interesting pictures. I will describe my hilt as a Cirebon yudowinatan hilt. What catch my eyes are the collection from Raden Adipati Wira. The keris he wear in the first picture and is shown at the second picture in the middle again. The wrongko is typical Cirebon/Tegal but the handle is normally attributed to Sumatra/Kariman Djawa. Also the wrongko at the fourth picture on the left side is in the form of Palembang sheaths but it is not the first time that I have heard that this for is also common for Cirebon. This all shows again that the affinity between Java/Cirebon and Sumatra is very very close. Thank you again and kind regards, Detlef

31st January 2011, 04:49 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Detlef, there are a number of planar hilt forms, and the differences between them are very, very slight, one really needs to be a tukang jejeran with a family background in the craft to reliably differentiate between the various forms. The Surakarta yudowinatan form is only one of many of the Surakarta planar hilt forms, but one thing is absolutely certain:- we cannot call this metal hilt "yudowinatan", because of its non-conforming cecekan --- apart from anything else. In spite of Tunggalametung's interesting offering of photographs, I am afraid that I am unable to move from my opinion that this hilt form is a Central Javanese form, and very probably Surakarta --- but I am not saying here that it was made in Surakarta. I base my seeming inflexibility on the fact that a photograph in the absence of context does not really demonstrate very much. If we knew the time, place and circumstances of these photos, we may be able to use what we can see as some sort of evidence of something, but when we take into account the somewhat convoluted dress rules surrounding what was and what was not acceptable in defined circumstances we really are facing a probably insurmountable puzzle. With all things Javanese there is a difficulty in interpreting anything that is seen, or heard, that can only be overcome with a complete understanding of the circumstances surrounding that which is seen or heard.

31st January 2011, 12:48 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Hello Alan, you are right, I have used the term yudowinatan a little bit frivolous, maybe because it was used before in this thread. I am aware that there a lot different planar handle forms from Surakarta (such as: yudowinatan, canteng, dan longok and others). I have a small collection of different planar handle and when you see them side by side you can see they are different but I am not able to name them. Alongside there are also planar handle from East Java and Banyumasan with the same style. Maybe it will be nice to start one day a own thread about the different planar handle styles. So I try to couch my description of this handle new: "A metal wrapped planar Central Javanese (most probable Surakarta) handle likely made in Cirebon." Best regards, Detlef

1st February 2011, 02:56 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Detlef, I am not out to start any sort of controversy in respect of origin of this hilt, I am only putting forward for consideration that which I can see. In respect of the form, there is no doubt at all that it is a Central Javanese form, however, design and execution of detail do vary from what we are used to seeing in a Surakarta hilt. What catches my eye with the execution is the combination of embossing and engraving. The engraving is remarkable similar to the style that we often find in old Banyumas pendoks. Very different to both Surakarta and Ngayogyakarta, and nothing at all like the workmanship that can positively be associated with the North Coast. The embossing is fine, and again, nothing like what we are used to seeing from the North Coast. Bearing in mind the fact that Banyumas did in fact use a planar hilt form, I feel that this is a point of origin that does bear some consideration.

2nd February 2011, 03:57 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Where things are collected, most especially keris, cannot be taken as an indication at all of where they were made. Extreme examples are the keris and pedang and dagger blades that were shipped as items of trade from Jawa to places as far removed as Sri Lanka and India, in the 15th century. Less extreme examples are the keris blades that have been made in various centers of production since the 18th century and sold in various places right across maritime SE Asia. What applies to blades can equally apply to items of dress.