Spanish ?? I.D. Help Needed

Jim McDougall · 13th January 2011, 12:37 AM

Actually the 'perillo', with reference to the discussion on this rapier, is a red herring .

I do recall the Beraiz work, and thank you Fernando for sharing it with me several years ago in work I was doing researching the running wolf. The connections between the well known Passau wolf and the mark seen on some of Julians blades, though like the wide variation in the running wolf, it can be seen in many forms, often even rampant which the running wolf is not.

Getting to this interesting rapier, it appears to me to be a courtly rapier made in Continental smallsword style of the latter 18th century, and with the scallop shell guard of hilt forms consigned to Spains colonies in the Americas. As noted, these type of shellguards are well known on espadas from Brazilian centers, as well as other port regions of the Spanish trade sphere.

These scallop shell guards with similar striations are seen on espadas provenanced to Brazil as late as mid 19th century, but are also known on espada anchas from the Santa Fe region c.1780s and other similar arming type swords of similar period.

The blade is similar to Solingen made trade blades for Spanish export to the colonies from the early part of the 18th century, possibly even earlier. These were intended for the hilting and remounting of the traditional rapiers long favored by Spanish gentry and worn much longer in the colonies than on the Continent. The hilt resembles guards seen on Spanish hunting type hangers from the 17th century, which also were favored for colonial wear in the same manner and well illustrated by the development of the espada ancha swords worn on the frontiers of New Spain.

Naturally with the proud traditions of Spain reflected by the gentry of the colonies in thier older style weapons would quite likely carry motif which recalled the military orders of chivalry , with the scallop shell of St. James of Compostela being foremost. Spains Order of St. James of Compostela and its equivilent in Portugal the Order of St. James of the Sword, were two of such orders.

Just added painting of St. James by Rembrandt 1661 with scallop shell worn on his shoulder, symbol of pilgrims to Compostela.

celtan · 13th January 2011, 09:28 PM

Hi Jim,

I have seen many sword guards with the shell motif, but they are usually single pieces mounted on the frontal aspect. This one is bilobated, with one shell (frontal) larger than the other. Do the ones you guys refer to as colonial share this particular detail?

Nandinho: Thanks, I do have a .pdf of Gladius XXIV, 2004, pp. 209-260
INTRODUCCIÓN AL ESTUDIO TIPOLÓGICO DE LAS ESPADAS ESPAÑOLAS: SIGLOS XVI-XVII.

Regarding the wolfie/doggie motif, It well might have been more common in those times than we think, and in fact it may be a mark of quality. I recall having once seen a very old shield belonging to my family, showing a rampant wolfie/doggie, red over green or viceversa.

Whether it's a good or bad quality mark I can't say, but please don't ask my wife...

: )

M

fernando · 13th January 2011, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

... NandinhoThanks, I do have a .pdf of Gladius XXIV, 2004, pp. 209-260
INTRODUCCIÓN AL ESTUDIO TIPOLÓGICO DE LAS ESPADAS ESPAÑOLAS: SIGLOS XVI-XVII...

I have that one in my 'favorites'; the author is the same, but the stuff is different ... specifically concentrated on Julia Del Rey.
Sure you don't want a copy?
You don't know what your'e missing

celtan · 13th January 2011, 11:36 PM

I'm sorry, my mistake. I opened the wrong .pdf and copied its tittle. Thank you Nando, I do have that one too,

JULIÁN DEL REY: NUEVOS DATOS SOBRE SU FIGURA POR GERMÁN DUEÑAS BERAIZ

and another

LA MARCA DEL PERRILLO DEL ESPADERO ESPANOL JULIAN DEL REY por J. J. Rodríguez Lorente

If you wish, I can send you the last one.

Thank you again

Manolo

BTW, wouldn't it be nice if the website had a place to store documents such as these?

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

I have that one in my 'favorites'; the author is the same, but the stuff is different ... specifically concentrated on Julia Del Rey.
Sure you don't want a copy?
You don't know what your'e missing

Jim McDougall · 14th January 2011, 12:00 AM

Interesting example Manolo, and it shows a bit more stylized scallop shell effect in the smallsword style as noted with bilobate guard. The more colonial style espadas mentioned, and that appear to correspond to a similar example with supported provenance to Brazil, are with a semi bowl type effect, as shown in the example attached which is from an earlier post by Mark Eley (the lower sword of the two').

The shellguard is much more workmanlike in stylized representation that is very much like the example you have shown in configuration, note the pierced dots between striations. I have seen examples with a smaller shell opposing the front one, but not quite bilobate, in the same exact styling, striation and dots. These are clearly colonial work, and often are mounted with trade blades of end of the 18th century.

With the espada ancha, I have not yet found an illustration, but these from the same period in colonial New Spain have the shellguards downward as in a langet and same plane as the blade. They are of course singular and many are in the cockleshell or scallop shell design, with many stylized variations which often defer to an open shield type form and simple lines rather than radiating striations.

The running wolf has generally held to represent early guild marks in Passau, which was soon adopted elsewhere as a quality symbol, particularly in Solingen as thier blademaking industry grew. In later years, the figure which in many cases resembled the obscure stylized wolf marks, but also in many cases was clearly rampant rather than running, is also believed to have had to do with guild marks in Spain. In these instances, much as other commonly seen marks in Italy for example, these guild marks were typically applied in concert with makers marks, and not indicative of a maker in particular.

When these type marks evolved out of that context, and associated with trade blades, then copied by native smiths, the special attention to the mark was interpreted as its possessing magical, amuletic and quality characteristics.

That really is a beautiful example of rapier you posted, can you say more on it?

Best,
Jim

celtan · 14th January 2011, 06:07 PM

Hi Jim,

Can't add anything about the sword, only that it sold for$850 several years ago. I saved the pics for "future" (today) reference...

M

13th January 2011, 12:37 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	Actually the 'perillo', with reference to the discussion on this rapier, is a red herring . I do recall the Beraiz work, and thank you Fernando for sharing it with me several years ago in work I was doing researching the running wolf. The connections between the well known Passau wolf and the mark seen on some of Julians blades, though like the wide variation in the running wolf, it can be seen in many forms, often even rampant which the running wolf is not. Getting to this interesting rapier, it appears to me to be a courtly rapier made in Continental smallsword style of the latter 18th century, and with the scallop shell guard of hilt forms consigned to Spains colonies in the Americas. As noted, these type of shellguards are well known on espadas from Brazilian centers, as well as other port regions of the Spanish trade sphere. These scallop shell guards with similar striations are seen on espadas provenanced to Brazil as late as mid 19th century, but are also known on espada anchas from the Santa Fe region c.1780s and other similar arming type swords of similar period. The blade is similar to Solingen made trade blades for Spanish export to the colonies from the early part of the 18th century, possibly even earlier. These were intended for the hilting and remounting of the traditional rapiers long favored by Spanish gentry and worn much longer in the colonies than on the Continent. The hilt resembles guards seen on Spanish hunting type hangers from the 17th century, which also were favored for colonial wear in the same manner and well illustrated by the development of the espada ancha swords worn on the frontiers of New Spain. Naturally with the proud traditions of Spain reflected by the gentry of the colonies in thier older style weapons would quite likely carry motif which recalled the military orders of chivalry , with the scallop shell of St. James of Compostela being foremost. Spains Order of St. James of Compostela and its equivilent in Portugal the Order of St. James of the Sword, were two of such orders. Just added painting of St. James by Rembrandt 1661 with scallop shell worn on his shoulder, symbol of pilgrims to Compostela. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 13th January 2011 at 05:39 PM. Reason: added picture of St. James finis ph.

13th January 2011, 09:28 PM	#2
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hi Jim, I have seen many sword guards with the shell motif, but they are usually single pieces mounted on the frontal aspect. This one is bilobated, with one shell (frontal) larger than the other. Do the ones you guys refer to as colonial share this particular detail? Nandinho: Thanks, I do have a .pdf of Gladius XXIV, 2004, pp. 209-260 INTRODUCCIÓN AL ESTUDIO TIPOLÓGICO DE LAS ESPADAS ESPAÑOLAS: SIGLOS XVI-XVII. Regarding the wolfie/doggie motif, It well might have been more common in those times than we think, and in fact it may be a mark of quality. I recall having once seen a very old shield belonging to my family, showing a rampant wolfie/doggie, red over green or viceversa. Whether it's a good or bad quality mark I can't say, but please don't ask my wife... : ) M Attached Images

14th January 2011, 12:00 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	Interesting example Manolo, and it shows a bit more stylized scallop shell effect in the smallsword style as noted with bilobate guard. The more colonial style espadas mentioned, and that appear to correspond to a similar example with supported provenance to Brazil, are with a semi bowl type effect, as shown in the example attached which is from an earlier post by Mark Eley (the lower sword of the two'). The shellguard is much more workmanlike in stylized representation that is very much like the example you have shown in configuration, note the pierced dots between striations. I have seen examples with a smaller shell opposing the front one, but not quite bilobate, in the same exact styling, striation and dots. These are clearly colonial work, and often are mounted with trade blades of end of the 18th century. With the espada ancha, I have not yet found an illustration, but these from the same period in colonial New Spain have the shellguards downward as in a langet and same plane as the blade. They are of course singular and many are in the cockleshell or scallop shell design, with many stylized variations which often defer to an open shield type form and simple lines rather than radiating striations. The running wolf has generally held to represent early guild marks in Passau, which was soon adopted elsewhere as a quality symbol, particularly in Solingen as thier blademaking industry grew. In later years, the figure which in many cases resembled the obscure stylized wolf marks, but also in many cases was clearly rampant rather than running, is also believed to have had to do with guild marks in Spain. In these instances, much as other commonly seen marks in Italy for example, these guild marks were typically applied in concert with makers marks, and not indicative of a maker in particular. When these type marks evolved out of that context, and associated with trade blades, then copied by native smiths, the special attention to the mark was interpreted as its possessing magical, amuletic and quality characteristics. That really is a beautiful example of rapier you posted, can you say more on it? Best, Jim Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 14th January 2011 at 05:34 PM.

14th January 2011, 06:07 PM	#6
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hi Jim, Can't add anything about the sword, only that it sold for$850 several years ago. I saved the pics for "future" (today) reference... M