Spanish ?? I.D. Help Needed

celtan · 5th January 2011, 02:07 AM

Hi G,

Adding to your interesting post on grips

Indeed, fencing styles do differ, but I do recall my fencing instructor showing me how to steady the grip by placing the index finger hooked _through_ the front small-sword's pas dáne, and guiding the blade's tip with the small finger. Of course, the modern fencing epee is grabbed as you describe, palm upwards.

Then, when you go to the Spanish School, with its high pommel/low tip classic stance, the grip again differs, there you really hold the very short grip with the index and middle fingers on each side of the ricasso beneath the cup's guardapolvo hooked over the cross guard, and the thumb held diagonally close to the guard's crux. Then, the small and heart fingers grab the large pommel for both aim and grip. Thus, the grip is shorter.

And if you go to a katana/daito, you virtually grip the tsuka with mostly the heart and small fingers... of the lower hand!.

Different strokes for different people..?

BTW,IIRC the doggie/wolfie motif was often inlaid with copper/brass.

BR, M

Rikkn · 7th January 2011, 02:37 AM

Overwhelmingly cool information guys, but in simple terms, what have I got here ??

cornelistromp · 7th January 2011, 05:29 AM

Late 18thc spanish small sword.

fernando · 7th January 2011, 12:42 PM

... with an earlier blade and a later scabbard

celtan · 7th January 2011, 02:29 PM

Hi R,
Can you take a lateral pic to confirm whether the pda is fucntional or not? (The 2 rings under the shell guard). That is the crux of the matter in the exchange between F, G and I. If its nonfuctional, the hilt is post 1770s.

BTW F, the hilt doths seem to complement the shell design...

BRs

M : )

laEspadaAncha · 7th January 2011, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

Late 18thc spanish small sword.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

... with an earlier blade and a later scabbard

What they said.

Might also add that based on similar examples handled by a friend, your example is of likely (Latin American) Spanish Colonial origin.

celtan · 8th January 2011, 05:42 AM

Hey! Just noticed the first pic is as lateral view as can be, the pas dáne IS functional, ergo, the sword is pre-1770.

The cast grip look very similar to several from the 1720-1780 as appear in Neuman's "Swords from the American Revolution".

LBNL, in Wither's book, there appears one English sword with several similarities, dating to the 1650s.

Sadly, no smallsword I have seen so far shows an identical guard . OTOH, it is similarly shaped to the Spanish M1720, although smaller.

To me, everything says 18th C.

BR, M

M ELEY · 9th January 2011, 06:21 AM

[QUOTE=celtan]
Sadly, no smallsword I have seen so far shows an identical guard . OTOH, it is similarly shaped to the Spanish M1720, although smaller.

These shell guards are more common on Spanish colonial bilbo types in the New World. We see them on that Brazilian cutlass we've discussed before, complete with striations. Maybe not an identical guard on a smallsword, per say, but bilobate guards on smallswords are encountered. Beautiful piece, BTW. Screams nautical/pirate/Caribbean-

Here's the old link with the Brazilian shell cutlass-
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=pirate+swords

M ELEY · 9th January 2011, 06:44 AM

Well, that didn't work. Anyway, it's under the past post of "Pirate swords and weapons 2".

9th January 2011, 06:21 AM	#8
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,146	[QUOTE=celtan] Sadly, no smallsword I have seen so far shows an identical guard . OTOH, it is similarly shaped to the Spanish M1720, although smaller. These shell guards are more common on Spanish colonial bilbo types in the New World. We see them on that Brazilian cutlass we've discussed before, complete with striations. Maybe not an identical guard on a smallsword, per say, but bilobate guards on smallswords are encountered. Beautiful piece, BTW. Screams nautical/pirate/Caribbean- Here's the old link with the Brazilian shell cutlass- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=pirate+swords Last edited by M ELEY; 9th January 2011 at 06:37 AM.

5th January 2011, 02:07 AM	#1
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hi G, Adding to your interesting post on grips Indeed, fencing styles do differ, but I do recall my fencing instructor showing me how to steady the grip by placing the index finger hooked _through_ the front small-sword's pas dáne, and guiding the blade's tip with the small finger. Of course, the modern fencing epee is grabbed as you describe, palm upwards. Then, when you go to the Spanish School, with its high pommel/low tip classic stance, the grip again differs, there you really hold the very short grip with the index and middle fingers on each side of the ricasso beneath the cup's guardapolvo hooked over the cross guard, and the thumb held diagonally close to the guard's crux. Then, the small and heart fingers grab the large pommel for both aim and grip. Thus, the grip is shorter. And if you go to a katana/daito, you virtually grip the tsuka with mostly the heart and small fingers... of the lower hand!. Different strokes for different people..? BTW,IIRC the doggie/wolfie motif was often inlaid with copper/brass. BR, M

7th January 2011, 02:37 AM	#2
Rikkn Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Ormond by the Sea, Fl Posts: 50	Overwhelmingly cool information guys, but in simple terms, what have I got here ??

7th January 2011, 05:29 AM	#3
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Late 18thc spanish small sword.

7th January 2011, 12:42 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	... with an earlier blade and a later scabbard

7th January 2011, 02:29 PM	#5
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hi R, Can you take a lateral pic to confirm whether the pda is fucntional or not? (The 2 rings under the shell guard). That is the crux of the matter in the exchange between F, G and I. If its nonfuctional, the hilt is post 1770s. BTW F, the hilt doths seem to complement the shell design... BRs M : )

8th January 2011, 05:42 AM	#7
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hey! Just noticed the first pic is as lateral view as can be, the pas dáne IS functional, ergo, the sword is pre-1770. The cast grip look very similar to several from the 1720-1780 as appear in Neuman's "Swords from the American Revolution". LBNL, in Wither's book, there appears one English sword with several similarities, dating to the 1650s. Sadly, no smallsword I have seen so far shows an identical guard . OTOH, it is similarly shaped to the Spanish M1720, although smaller. To me, everything says 18th C. BR, M

9th January 2011, 06:44 AM	#9
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,146	Well, that didn't work. Anyway, it's under the past post of "Pirate swords and weapons 2".