Taming Sari???

[David]

Ah, Neo, my kingdom for a time machine...
When you google Jesus most images show you a guy with European features, often blondish and with blue eyes.
Like all legends that may or may not have historical reality, the truth about the form of the actual Taming Sari will probably be forever elusive. The one you describe is what is claimed to be the original currently in the royal regalia of Sultan Azlan Shah, the Sultan of Perak, Malaysia. But in some of the legends the keris was thrown into the river. The history of this blade is very muddled and i don't think anyone can say with any evidential certainty what is what. Is the one in the royal regalia the true keris? I guess it all a matter of what you choose to believe.
I would venture to say that even it the keris that is claimed to be Taming Sari is the original keris, it is most certainly not in it's original clothing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taming_Sari

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody!

It all boils down to a matter of faith .....

As far as I am concerned, Tameng Sari was the name of the Madja Pait warrior defeated by Hang Toeah and whose weapon was souvenired by same.

Best,

[David]

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

It all boils down to a matter of faith .....

As far as I am concerned, Tameng Sari was the name of the Madja Pait warrior defeated by Hang Toeah and whose weapon was souvenired by same.

Amuk, this is pretty much the established story, though i am not quite sure that "souvenir" would be exactly the correct term.
Neo's question is about what this keris may have looked like. Are you of the mind that the keris currently in regalia of the Sultan of Perak is actually this very keris or that it is still lost or missing? If indeed the keris of this regalia ia Taming Sari, then we know what form it takes.

[Amuk Murugul]

Originally Posted by David

Amuk, this is pretty much the established story, though i am not quite sure that "souvenir" would be exactly the correct term.
Neo's question is about what this keris may have looked like. Are you of the mind that the keris currently in regalia of the Sultan of Perak is actually this very keris or that it is still lost or missing? If indeed the keris of this regalia ia Taming Sari, then we know what form it takes.

Hullo David,

I tend to believe that I have an open and objective mind. I always wish that anything I think may be true were so.
However, I now tend to approach things with an open and objective mind slightly tempered with scepticism born of experience.
You may have some idea of the relief and exuberance I feel when something proves to be true.

WRT the keris in question (if indeed it WAS a keris) ..... as the Malays would say: Wallahualam (God knows)..... in the absence of incontravertible proof.

Best,

[David]

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

WRT the keris in question (if indeed it WAS a keris) ..... as the Malays would say: Wallahualam (God knows)..... in the absence of incontravertible proof.

Interesting...what else would you suggest it might have been? Have you heard stories suggesting it was anything else?

[Neo]

Well, actually my question was not whether or not it was the actual Taming Sari

I am more interested in whether or not that jangkung (?) keris with fancy cucumber hilt is the one that the Perak Sultanate CLAIMS to be Taming Sari. It is more about their IDEA of Taming Sari, how it would look like ... let's just assume for a second that the Sultanate tailored the story and the actual Taming Sari was lost in the river. Then, logically, the Sultan would be most likely to commission for a keris that looks as close as possible to the actual Taming Sari from his memory, not something that he fancied of having.

The purpose of this question is so the next time I talk to that Dukun Tarik, I can inspect the kerises that he pulled from the astral plane and look to see if Taming Sari has returned back to Java, so I can get it and be the next Hang Tuah ... Just kidding

I also like that cucumber hilt (this is related to my prior post) and would like to learn more about its style. That hilt doesn't seem common. I guess it's Malay style?

[PenangsangII]

The hilt of the so-called tameng Sari is called "ketam guri", or I saw it somewhere Madurese term as tongkol jagung.

WRT the keris, and if the keris in question is made state regalia of Perak, I think Tameng Sari was a "gift" from the Majapahit king to his son in law, Sultan of Melaka as its a tradition still practised by the Jawanese till today. The keris was then given to the chief admiral, dato Hang Tuah. That's why after the failure to ask mount Ophir princess for hand in marriage, the keris was retured to the sultan while hang Tuah moksha forever......

well, a lil bit of folk lore story to brighten up our day

[Amuk Murugul]

Originally Posted by Neo

Well, actually my question was not whether or not it was the actual Taming Sari

I am more interested in whether or not that jangkung (?) keris with fancy cucumber hilt is the one that the Perak Sultanate CLAIMS to be Taming Sari.

Hullo Neo,

In case you haven't looked here yet:

http://sultan.perak.gov.my/bahasa/keris_taming.htm

Best,

[David]

Originally Posted by Neo

Well, actually my question was not whether or not it was the actual Taming Sari

I am more interested in whether or not that jangkung (?) keris with fancy cucumber hilt is the one that the Perak Sultanate CLAIMS to be Taming Sari. It is more about their IDEA of Taming Sari, how it would look like ... let's just assume for a second that the Sultanate tailored the story and the actual Taming Sari was lost in the river. Then, logically, the Sultan would be most likely to commission for a keris that looks as close as possible to the actual Taming Sari from his memory, not something that he fancied of having.

I don't think anyone suggested that this was your original question Neo. Still it bares some examining and if there was any solid evidence that it is the original it would in fact answer your question. It doesn't seem possible however to prove this, so as Amuk suggests, it's a matter of faith.
I do think that you need to put your time frame into perspective though. It would appear that this keris did not come into the possession of the Sultans until the late 19th century at the earliest. It was apparently in the family of the Admiralty for generations before, or so the story goes. So while this may or may not be the actual mythical blade i doubt that the Sultan had it commissioned and then started telling people it was Taming Sari and i doubt that he would have any idea what the actual blade was supposed to look like anyway as it was made and had it's legendary existence centuries before that time.