Strange Dagger in 16th Century Dutch Painting

laEspadaAncha · 30th December 2010, 05:45 PM

Here's a close-up of the hybrid ballock-rondel dagger shown in The Arrest of Christ... What I find interesting about this is we see style elements of the earliest pre-Jacobite dirks (e.g., disc pommel and ballock lobes) that were to evolve from Highland ballock daggers over the next century.

Matchlock · 30th December 2010, 07:10 PM

The hilt and pommel remind me of the Swiss type of dagger but the 'Malchus' shaped extremely curved blade clearly seems to reflect Oriental influence.

On the one hand, we cannot generally rule out that such a type of dagger actually existed. On the other, as David and Fernando have put out, this is Hieronymus Bosch. He is well known for his satirical, drastically overdrawn and 'fantasy' style of paintings, their characters and old style equipment. Often his paintings contain allusions to old sayings, and the faces, bodies and accouterments of his persons are both surrealistically and cinically distorted. His range of grotesque fantasy was unique among the late medieval/early Renaissance painters.

Of course, the formal style of the first dagger shows characteristic late Gothic elements, so it may not be pure fiction. The ballock dagger obviously is completely authentic.

Anyway, this is a really great thread as it shares my love of period artwork sources - they are most important when it comes to discussing original objects!

Best,
Michael

laEspadaAncha · 31st December 2010, 03:06 AM

Hi Michael - I appreciate your input. I have attached below three images from one of Bosch's better known works, The Garden of Earthly Delights, dating to ca. 1490-1510. This 7' x 12.5' (2.2 x 3.9m) monster triptych hangs in the Prado in Madrid. All three images are from the third panel.

I reference this work for two reasons: First, at the bottom of the third panel, one can find several edged weapons depicted with a high degree of realism. Second, what appears to be a very similar blade as in the OP can also be found in this panel - note the similarity with regards to the blade profile, the nick in the cutting edge, and the mark on the obverse of the blade (the guard is either absent or not visible, but the similarities are nonethless awfully coincidental)...

These details, virtually mirroring each other on two separate works of his separated by at least five years and as many as twenty-five, along with the general trend of accurately and realistically depicting other edged weapons in both paintings, would seem to support the possibility this knife actually existed, wouldn't it?

The 3rd panel of ...Earthly Delights:

Rondel dagger and other edged weapons portrayed with a high degree of realism:

The same blade as depicted in The Arrest of Christ:

Matchlock · 31st December 2010, 05:31 PM

Hi EspadaAncha,

Thank you so much for these fine documentary Bosch samples, you sure presented a characteristic selection.

I fully agree with your theory of the possibility that 'our' dagger in discussion may have really existed and been depicted after an original, especially as the general form is typical of late Gtothic/early Renaissance, as I tried to point out.

There is another argument that comes to my mind: considering the fact that all other of Bosch's edged weapons - and, concerning my field of expertise, the only known firearm he depicted, an Italian matchlock arquebus of ca. 1540 - are perfectly characteristic in their appearances, there is a very high probability that this dagger, of all, is not mere fantasy either.

Best,
Michael

laEspadaAncha · 31st December 2010, 06:34 PM

Hi Michael,

My appreciation of aesthetics of form (of edged weapons) were in no small part influenced by the vintage hunting knives I was exposed to while growing up...

I am particularly partial to the vintage hand-ground hunting knives that were turned out by U.S. manufacturers (the Buck Frontiersman comes to mind) with gently swelling bellies and graceful lines - both expressive of the art of knife making that has continued to evolve here in the U.S. and which IMO are reflected to some degree in this particular dagger. While it doesn't take much for me to find an appreciation of aesthetics when it comes to edged weapons (usually just a point or an edge of some sort, and a turned or carved piece of horn, ivory, or wood

), I find this particular dagger to be very appealing to the eye.

Here's an example of the Frontiersman - given the impact this particular knife had on my tastes, I am sure you will see why I am so curious to learn more about this dagger...

Thank you for additional the example that IMO further corroborates the degree of accuracy with which Bosch portrayed weaponry in his work. I have looked through my (feeble collection of) reference books but cannot find a similar dagger from the period. Would you by chance have any illustrations or photographs of similar examples you can share?

Regards,

Chris

Matchlock · 31st December 2010, 06:36 PM

To the mods:

Though there are some attachments in this thread, I noticed that the paper clip announcing them was missing on the main page.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 31st December 2010, 06:56 PM

Hi Chris,

Now I understand your partiality for those daggers - it's no wonder at all as the illustrated Frontiersman sample doubtlessly corresponds to, or is well based on, the so-called Maximilian type of ca. 1500 German Grosses Messer and contemporary daggers, showing the same stylized bird's head pommel.

Sadly my

scanner is on strike at the moment but I will try and post some originals of ca. 1500 soon.

From my computer archives, I attach details showing the latest form of a bird's head pommel on a backsword, from a painting by Lucas Cranach the Elder of 1535, titled Judith with the head of Holofernes.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 31st December 2010, 07:44 PM

Hi Chris,

For plenty of reference, please also see my thread

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8630

Here is some more period artwork showing 15th and early 16th century bird's head pommels, plus a few others.

From top:

From the Constitutio Criminalis Bambergensis (Bambergische Peinliche Halsgerichtsordnung), 1507: 2 woodcuts

From the Wurzach altar by Hans Multscher, 1437: 1 detail

By Albrecht Dürer, Nuremberg, 1519: 1 image

From the Arnstädter Auferstehungsaltar (the Arnstadt Resurrection altar), Thuringia, Germany, ca. 1430: 2 details

Detail from a woodcut, ca. 1505.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 31st December 2010, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

To the mods:

Though there are some attachments in this thread, I noticed that the paper clip announcing them was missing on the main page.

Best,
Michael

Thank you so much, Lee?,

for mending that so promptly.

With all my best,
Michael

laEspadaAncha · 31st December 2010, 10:53 PM

Hi Michael,

Wonderful examples of period bird's head pommels that do recall the "mystery dagger" as well as the much (much

) later Bucks... You know, I have to admit - I never have once stopped to consider the pommel of the Bucks which are indeed stylized bird's head pommels, as I have always fixated on the blade profile.

So much for my powers of observation, eh?

Regards,

Chris

31st December 2010, 06:56 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Chris, Now I understand your partiality for those daggers - it's no wonder at all as the illustrated Frontiersman sample doubtlessly corresponds to, or is well based on, the so-called Maximilian type of ca. 1500 German Grosses Messer and contemporary daggers, showing the same stylized bird's head pommel. Sadly my scanner is on strike at the moment but I will try and post some originals of ca. 1500 soon. From my computer archives, I attach details showing the latest form of a bird's head pommel on a backsword, from a painting by Lucas Cranach the Elder of 1535, titled Judith with the head of Holofernes. Best, Michael Attached Images

31st December 2010, 07:44 PM	#8
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Chris, For plenty of reference, please also see my thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8630 Here is some more period artwork showing 15th and early 16th century bird's head pommels, plus a few others. From top: From the Constitutio Criminalis Bambergensis (Bambergische Peinliche Halsgerichtsordnung), 1507: 2 woodcuts From the Wurzach altar by Hans Multscher, 1437: 1 detail By Albrecht Dürer, Nuremberg, 1519: 1 image From the Arnstädter Auferstehungsaltar (the Arnstadt Resurrection altar), Thuringia, Germany, ca. 1430: 2 details Detail from a woodcut, ca. 1505. Best, Michael Attached Images

30th December 2010, 05:45 PM	#1
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Here's a close-up of the hybrid ballock-rondel dagger shown in The Arrest of Christ... What I find interesting about this is we see style elements of the earliest pre-Jacobite dirks (e.g., disc pommel and ballock lobes) that were to evolve from Highland ballock daggers over the next century.

30th December 2010, 07:10 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	The hilt and pommel remind me of the Swiss type of dagger but the 'Malchus' shaped extremely curved blade clearly seems to reflect Oriental influence. On the one hand, we cannot generally rule out that such a type of dagger actually existed. On the other, as David and Fernando have put out, this is Hieronymus Bosch. He is well known for his satirical, drastically overdrawn and 'fantasy' style of paintings, their characters and old style equipment. Often his paintings contain allusions to old sayings, and the faces, bodies and accouterments of his persons are both surrealistically and cinically distorted. His range of grotesque fantasy was unique among the late medieval/early Renaissance painters. Of course, the formal style of the first dagger shows characteristic late Gothic elements, so it may not be pure fiction. The ballock dagger obviously is completely authentic. Anyway, this is a really great thread as it shares my love of period artwork sources - they are most important when it comes to discussing original objects! Best, Michael

31st December 2010, 03:06 AM	#3
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Michael - I appreciate your input. I have attached below three images from one of Bosch's better known works, The Garden of Earthly Delights, dating to ca. 1490-1510. This 7' x 12.5' (2.2 x 3.9m) monster triptych hangs in the Prado in Madrid. All three images are from the third panel. I reference this work for two reasons: First, at the bottom of the third panel, one can find several edged weapons depicted with a high degree of realism. Second, what appears to be a very similar blade as in the OP can also be found in this panel - note the similarity with regards to the blade profile, the nick in the cutting edge, and the mark on the obverse of the blade (the guard is either absent or not visible, but the similarities are nonethless awfully coincidental)... These details, virtually mirroring each other on two separate works of his separated by at least five years and as many as twenty-five, along with the general trend of accurately and realistically depicting other edged weapons in both paintings, would seem to support the possibility this knife actually existed, wouldn't it? The 3rd panel of ...Earthly Delights: Rondel dagger and other edged weapons portrayed with a high degree of realism: The same blade as depicted in The Arrest of Christ:

31st December 2010, 05:31 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi EspadaAncha, Thank you so much for these fine documentary Bosch samples, you sure presented a characteristic selection. I fully agree with your theory of the possibility that 'our' dagger in discussion may have really existed and been depicted after an original, especially as the general form is typical of late Gtothic/early Renaissance, as I tried to point out. There is another argument that comes to my mind: considering the fact that all other of Bosch's edged weapons - and, concerning my field of expertise, the only known firearm he depicted, an Italian matchlock arquebus of ca. 1540 - are perfectly characteristic in their appearances, there is a very high probability that this dagger, of all, is not mere fantasy either. Best, Michael

31st December 2010, 06:34 PM	#5
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Michael, My appreciation of aesthetics of form (of edged weapons) were in no small part influenced by the vintage hunting knives I was exposed to while growing up... I am particularly partial to the vintage hand-ground hunting knives that were turned out by U.S. manufacturers (the Buck Frontiersman comes to mind) with gently swelling bellies and graceful lines - both expressive of the art of knife making that has continued to evolve here in the U.S. and which IMO are reflected to some degree in this particular dagger. While it doesn't take much for me to find an appreciation of aesthetics when it comes to edged weapons (usually just a point or an edge of some sort, and a turned or carved piece of horn, ivory, or wood ), I find this particular dagger to be very appealing to the eye. Here's an example of the Frontiersman - given the impact this particular knife had on my tastes, I am sure you will see why I am so curious to learn more about this dagger... Thank you for additional the example that IMO further corroborates the degree of accuracy with which Bosch portrayed weaponry in his work. I have looked through my (feeble collection of) reference books but cannot find a similar dagger from the period. Would you by chance have any illustrations or photographs of similar examples you can share? Regards, Chris

31st December 2010, 06:36 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	To the mods: Though there are some attachments in this thread, I noticed that the paper clip announcing them was missing on the main page. Best, Michael

31st December 2010, 10:53 PM	#10
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Michael, Wonderful examples of period bird's head pommels that do recall the "mystery dagger" as well as the much (much ) later Bucks... You know, I have to admit - I never have once stopped to consider the pommel of the Bucks which are indeed stylized bird's head pommels, as I have always fixated on the blade profile. So much for my powers of observation, eh? Regards, Chris