Federalist sword

Hotspur · 29th December 2010, 11:39 PM

In reading around outside of books and regarding the cast hilts while on a Widmann expedition, I came across a recent public uploading of a Man At Arms August 2010 article. It is in two parts and is in general reference for U.S. Marines swords but ancillary to the current discussion. It is in two parts but relates a good bit of early Philadelphia sword making. These perhaps a good bit later but the German/Prussian connections and ties are still there throughout Widmann and Horstmann operations.

www.bcadapa.org/smullen1-sm.pdf
www.bcadapa.org/smullen2-sm.pdf

A pair of 1788 type swords had come my way from Stanley a year of so ago. I forwarded the links to Mark at Old Swords and they should be listed there now as well. you may have to register for the articles section.
http://www.oldswords.com/resources/articles.php

This seems to be a happy lot of Pa folk. Dealers and collectors.
http://www.bcadapa.org/

Cheers

GC

M ELEY · 30th December 2010, 05:47 AM

I had skimmed through the Man-At-Arms article, but at the time, had not noted the implications of it (I also didn't have the lion hilt yet). Fascinating stuff. Thanks for posting it in full (you have a great scanner as everything came out crystal clear!).
Now I don't want to sound like a dunce, but I want to make sure I took the same info from the article. Widmann and later Horstman did make these brass one-piece pommel/grips and guards? The blades were imported, but the guards were marked with these American makers? I know they came later in sword-making vs the item being discussed, but still an interesting step in the direction of brass casting.

I used the OldSwords site for many years and was a member back when it was free-

. Yes, I do have to sign up and check out that article. I've talked with Mr Cloke via email forever ago with questions on naval swords. I've likewise bought at least one of Mr Long's swords awhile back. I'll try to "upgrade" to the site soon.

M ELEY · 30th December 2010, 09:08 AM

Oh, I see I misread an earlier post. You took pics and no scanner use. Wow, that's one good camera.

M ELEY · 31st December 2010, 08:59 AM

http://www.ushistory.org/carpentersh...calltoarms.htm
http://www.thayeramericana.com/back/.../research7.pdf
http://massmoments.org/moment.cfm?mid=275
Google search 'A Case for Stability' By Samuel Crowthers (google books)

My point being, if all of these things were being made in well-known Philadelphia foundries in the period we speak of with established provenance, why not sword hilts? Perhaps they still just haven't come to light. After all, a few web searches reveil large cast andirons, intricate cabinet furnishings, large bells, and mention of weapon fixtures. The Paul Revere article talks about the brass fittings for the U.S.S. Constitution being made in 1797. I forgot a major point by Bazelon in his article. He had mentioned the large flux of foreign craftsmen coming into America at this time (pointing out a Scot that might have been making blades along with Rose and Prahl just as one example). If the supposed skill of working in brass was absent with the American craftsmen (an opinion I would challenge regardless of this sword), perhaps one of those craftsmen working in the Philly area was responsible, much like the Houndslow German craftsmen in Great Britain? Just another thought...

Hotspur · 1st January 2011, 04:47 AM

Quote:

Perhaps they still just haven't come to light

Bingo

I mention Prahl making/casting gun fittings in an earlier post but at the same time and in the period being discussed, no mention there of the cast hilts. Still, leaving the door open for the source of the seemingly holy grail. Also no exacting description of the revolution sword contract. No confirmation of the shop doing the casting for the cast doggie grip and pommel shown in Bazelon's editing of the Pennsylvania collection book with no revision of that book after the 1992 article which I am still eager to read and better agree with or rationalize in supposition.

Happy New Year

GC

M ELEY · 1st January 2011, 06:13 AM

Now I see your point of caution. Not a denial, simply a waiting for more evidence. Makes perfect sense and still leaves room for exciting new developments in this area of study.

Happy New Year to all at the Forum!
Mark

M ELEY · 8th February 2011, 08:44 AM

In the newest Man-At -Arms magazine this month is an excellent article on the so-called Prahl eagle head swords with many of the same remarks and points brought up in our discussion. Specifically, the fact that many of these early eagle-head types had imported blades, but the jury is out on whether the hilts (one piece affairs of solid brass with 'ugly' eagle and 10 sided grips) were made in Philly or elsewhere. As these swords were made for the militias, the author of the article implies that most of these, IRON hilted included, were probably either individual or militia private purchase. Interesting that these Prahl-types had the same characteristics as our lion-hilt (solid brass one piece cast figural hilt, some crude and others more refined, private purchase, many with the 4 and 6 slot guards). Great article, by the way...

31st December 2010, 08:59 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,206	Brass, brass and more brass... http://www.ushistory.org/carpentersh...calltoarms.htm http://www.thayeramericana.com/back/.../research7.pdf http://massmoments.org/moment.cfm?mid=275 Google search 'A Case for Stability' By Samuel Crowthers (google books) My point being, if all of these things were being made in well-known Philadelphia foundries in the period we speak of with established provenance, why not sword hilts? Perhaps they still just haven't come to light. After all, a few web searches reveil large cast andirons, intricate cabinet furnishings, large bells, and mention of weapon fixtures. The Paul Revere article talks about the brass fittings for the U.S.S. Constitution being made in 1797. I forgot a major point by Bazelon in his article. He had mentioned the large flux of foreign craftsmen coming into America at this time (pointing out a Scot that might have been making blades along with Rose and Prahl just as one example). If the supposed skill of working in brass was absent with the American craftsmen (an opinion I would challenge regardless of this sword), perhaps one of those craftsmen working in the Philly area was responsible, much like the Houndslow German craftsmen in Great Britain? Just another thought... Last edited by M ELEY; 31st December 2010 at 09:14 AM.

8th February 2011, 08:44 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,206	More on the brass hilts In the newest Man-At -Arms magazine this month is an excellent article on the so-called Prahl eagle head swords with many of the same remarks and points brought up in our discussion. Specifically, the fact that many of these early eagle-head types had imported blades, but the jury is out on whether the hilts (one piece affairs of solid brass with 'ugly' eagle and 10 sided grips) were made in Philly or elsewhere. As these swords were made for the militias, the author of the article implies that most of these, IRON hilted included, were probably either individual or militia private purchase. Interesting that these Prahl-types had the same characteristics as our lion-hilt (solid brass one piece cast figural hilt, some crude and others more refined, private purchase, many with the 4 and 6 slot guards). Great article, by the way...

29th December 2010, 11:39 PM	#1
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 535	In reading around outside of books and regarding the cast hilts while on a Widmann expedition, I came across a recent public uploading of a Man At Arms August 2010 article. It is in two parts and is in general reference for U.S. Marines swords but ancillary to the current discussion. It is in two parts but relates a good bit of early Philadelphia sword making. These perhaps a good bit later but the German/Prussian connections and ties are still there throughout Widmann and Horstmann operations. www.bcadapa.org/smullen1-sm.pdf www.bcadapa.org/smullen2-sm.pdf A pair of 1788 type swords had come my way from Stanley a year of so ago. I forwarded the links to Mark at Old Swords and they should be listed there now as well. you may have to register for the articles section. http://www.oldswords.com/resources/articles.php This seems to be a happy lot of Pa folk. Dealers and collectors. http://www.bcadapa.org/ Cheers GC

30th December 2010, 05:47 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,206	I had skimmed through the Man-At-Arms article, but at the time, had not noted the implications of it (I also didn't have the lion hilt yet). Fascinating stuff. Thanks for posting it in full (you have a great scanner as everything came out crystal clear!). Now I don't want to sound like a dunce, but I want to make sure I took the same info from the article. Widmann and later Horstman did make these brass one-piece pommel/grips and guards? The blades were imported, but the guards were marked with these American makers? I know they came later in sword-making vs the item being discussed, but still an interesting step in the direction of brass casting. I used the OldSwords site for many years and was a member back when it was free- . Yes, I do have to sign up and check out that article. I've talked with Mr Cloke via email forever ago with questions on naval swords. I've likewise bought at least one of Mr Long's swords awhile back. I'll try to "upgrade" to the site soon.

30th December 2010, 09:08 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,206	Oh, I see I misread an earlier post. You took pics and no scanner use. Wow, that's one good camera.

1st January 2011, 06:13 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,206	Now I see your point of caution. Not a denial, simply a waiting for more evidence. Makes perfect sense and still leaves room for exciting new developments in this area of study. Happy New Year to all at the Forum! Mark