Javanese machete??

Kiai Carita · 25th June 2005, 08:20 AM

[QUOTE=Ian]Marto:

Thanks for clarifying the name for this tool. I, too, called this particular example a golok when I acquired it. Then I found a nearly identical chopper in v. Zonneveld (p. 34) which he identified as a bendo from West Java. So, even Mr. v. Z. can make a mistake, or perhaps there is a regional variation in terms that differs from your own experience. In any case, it is very confusing for someone from a different culture trying to understand these terms from a distance.

Kiai Carita says: in my travels to Pasundan region in the past I have never heard the word bendho. It sounds too funny and alien to the Sundanese ear, it is a javanese word and a javanese tool not really used in the West of Java. A Western writer with a Javanese informer might say it is a Sundanese bendho but that would be the Javanese name ... Sundanese prefer goloks. The goloks of Ciwedei are of superior quality to most bendho made in Java. Goloks have important martial usage as well.

Henk · 25th June 2005, 09:48 AM

Ian,

I really understand that you are a bit confused. Don't worry, so am I. The weapon you show is similar to the bendo in the book by Van Zonneveld. I have a similar one but the hilt is more a golok hilt. When I got my bendo, to give the thing at least a name, I thought it was a golok, but refering Van Zonneveld I found out it was a bendo.

But I'm very happy with the input Kiai and Marto are bringing up. I know that the names of weapons and knives, machetes(choppers) do vary in the Archipello and that names are used to point out a group of weapons/tools. Just like you said Marto, a parang is a general name for a chopper. Apparantly the name bendho or bendo could be a general name for a chopper as well. Van Zonneveld describes the bendo as a tool with an agrarian purpose. And this object that I'm showing could be very well an agrarian tool. The sickle formed tip looks excelent for pruning to me.

I was very surprised by the identification of "kudhi". Sure, it has a kudhi shape. But as far as I know a kudhi is described as a talismanic dagger for a priest. But as Kiai pointed out the pusaka type of a kudhi is called a kujang. May I presume that the small old version of a kudhi with a pamor blade, presented in the literature as a kudhi, that that description is not completely correct? and should be presented as a kujang?

Just like Ian, I'm getting a bit dizzy

but it is a most interesting subject.
Marto with the reference of his wife with her background (my regards to the Mrs.) and the visions of Kiai.

Thanks, Henk

tom hyle · 25th June 2005, 12:28 PM

Interesting that the swelling seems to be thought of as distinctly SE Asian; I had considered it fairly distinctly European; interesting if we ever find out which way that spread.
BTW, The term recurve is AFAIK being used incorrectly here. A recurved blade is not one that curves forward (is the thinking that this is a "re"verse curve?), but one that curves one way, and then the other, usually forward and then back (ie curves and then re-curves; to re-do means to do again; curves then curves again; note that a sword is spoken of as curving; the verb form is used, even though it is not actually performing action, but just sitting there with a curve; seems odd to me suddenly, and perhaps to non-native readers of English, but language often is odd, and this usage is not limitted to weapons); thus the cutting edge of this sword is techincally recurved, though in the opposite of the usual manner; more normally recurved edges are on kukuri, for instance. More swords have a recurved cutting edge than an overall recurved shape. More usually the swelling this implies is toward the tip (ala kukuri), rather than toward the base of the blade, as here, but then that may just be of examples I've seen, and may be influenced by the prevalence of weapons over tools in my sampling of foreign blades........

Ian · 25th June 2005, 04:55 PM

Tom:

I've always been a little confused by the use of "recurved." Whether the term applies to the cutting edge or the overall shape of the blade. Is there a standard "recurved" shape and a mirror-image "reverse-recurved" shape? And it is interesting to note whether the resulting blade is usually forward-weighted (towards the tip), as seems to be the fashion for most standard recurved blades, or back-weighted (towards the hilt) as may be seen here with a reverse-recurved blade. You raise some good questions about terminology and the function of these various shapes.

Those for whom English is not their first language must get some amusement from the way we spend time sorting through word definitions and syntax.

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Interesting that the swelling seems to be thought of as distinctly SE Asian; I had considered it fairly distinctly European; interesting if we ever find out which way that spread.
BTW, The term recurve is AFAIK being used incorrectly here. A recurved blade is not one that curves forward (is the thinking that this is a "re"verse curve?), but one that curves one way, and then the other, usually forward and then back (ie curves and then re-curves; to re-do means to do again; curves then curves again; note that a sword is spoken of as curving; the verb form is used, even though it is not actually performing action, but just sitting there with a curve; seems odd to me suddenly, and perhaps to non-native readers of English, but language often is odd, and this usage is not limitted to weapons); thus the cutting edge of this sword is techincally recurved, though in the opposite of the usual manner; more normally recurved edges are on kukuri, for instance. More swords have a recurved cutting edge than an overall recurved shape. More usually the swelling this implies is toward the tip (ala kukuri), rather than toward the base of the blade, as here, but then that may just be of examples I've seen, and may be influenced by the prevalence of weapons over tools in my sampling of foreign blades........

marto suwignyo · 26th June 2005, 02:20 AM

Firstly let me talk about the word "recurved".
I could well be wrong in the way I have used this word to convey my intent. To me, a "recurved blade" is a blade that is curved, and has its cutting edge on the inside of the curve.

The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary defines recurve as:-

"To turn back in a curve upon its previous direction. Hence, recurved or bent back; having a backwards curve."

I understand this as meaning that if an object is straight, and one end is turned back towards the direction of the other end, it is recurved.There is no necessity for a curve to exist, prior to a second curve being formed, for a thing to possess the quality of being "recurved". In simple terms, "recurved" has the same meaning in the English language as "curved", but probably expresses the degree of curve by requiring a recurved thing to bend back towards its beginning position.

Tom Hyle uses the khukri as an example of a recurved blade, and up to ten minutes ago I would have thought of a khukri as having a recurved blade, in that its second curve moves back towards the level of its first curve. But I now think that I would have been wrong. The correct meaning of the word does not seem to be this at all.

So, as I said, my use of recurved to describe a blade that is simply curved, but perhaps lacking the degree of curve to make it recurved, is probably wrong, and for this imprecise use of English I apologise. English is a very difficult language. One could study it all one`s life and still learn something new each day. I have never looked at the dictionary meaning or "recurved" before, and Tom Hyle`s remarks forced me to check and see if was talking sense or nonsense. It wasn`t nonsense, but it was imprecise.

To clarify the form of the blade in what I know as a bendho:- the blade is straight, with a curve at its front end, and its cutting edge is on the inside of the curve.

KIAI yth

Thank you very much for your response to my query.

So, in Wonogiri, half an hour south of Solo, and in Madiun about one and a half hours east of Solo, this tool would be recognised as an "arit gedhe". Do you happen to know if it can be described as an "arit gedhe" in the area around Sragen?

Yes, I understand the distinction you are making between the name and the description of "arit gedhe" and "arit sing gedhe". However, what I know as an arit gedhe is in fact gedhe. Still, as we agree, names vary.

I find it interesting that you claim the small pusaka version of a kujang is called a kudhi.

Kudhis and kujangs are similar, and what I have found is that in Solo nobody makes any distinction between the two. An ahli tosan aji might, but ordinary people, craftsmen, dealers, tradespeople refer to kudhi, kujang, and in fact any other small,old, curved type blades as kudhis. This common usage may be wrong, but it is the way people right now refer to these things, in one specific location.
Similar situation with the "bendho" shown on page 34 of van Zonneveld. Since this discussion started I have shown this picture to four different people who are all Javanese. I don`t have any idea at all what the name for van Zonneveld`s "bendho" is, but the other four people I have shown it to all want to call it a kitchen knife----simply "piso".Maybe the only person who could give the exactly correct name to this thing is somebody who lives where it is used.

Anyway, back to the kudhi/kujang.
Kujangs are distinctly West Javanese, and there are several different shapes. Harsrinuksmo shows five ot six different shapes that he identifies as kujangs. He also shows several different shapes of kudhi. The kujangs look like the kudhis, and the kudhis look like the kujangs. Harsrinuksmo says that the difference is that kujangs are from West Java, kudhis are from Java and Madura, that is, to the east. He also says that a the base difference between the two is that a kudhi is a type of spear with a short shaft, while a kujang is something you hold with one hand.He shows a tool form of a kudhi, and this is exactly the shape of what I know as a bendho, but with that little axe-like projection we were talking about.This is a bit different to what I know as a luke, but it agrees exactly with what Kiai Carita knows as a kudhi.

To summarise:- if we can believe Harsinuksmo, kujangs are single hand weapons that come from West Java and that are used with one hand; kudhis are short spears that come from Java and Madura; but the tool form of a kudhi has a curved blade, sharpened on the inside of the curve, and with an axe-like projection near the handle, and is to all intents and purposes a bendho with a lump.

The name bendho is not a generic name for something: it is a specific name for a specific tool but this tool does have some variations, just as a chisel, or a sickle , has variations, however, some people will call a bendho a parang, because parang is a generic name for machete type tools.

I think all this just goes to show how very difficult it can be to try to put exactly correct names on any things from this part of the world. I`m not only talking about tools and weapons, but about anything at all. If we want to name something, the name should also include time and place.

Kiai Carita · 26th June 2005, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marto suwignyo

Kudhis and kujangs are similar, and what I have found is that in Solo nobody makes any distinction between the two. An ahli tosan aji might, but ordinary people, craftsmen, dealers, tradespeople refer to kudhi, kujang, and in fact any other small,old, curved type blades as kudhis. This common usage may be wrong, but it is the way people right now refer to these things, in one specific location.

Comment: The people of Solo (and under Solo) do not generally use kudi, which is more a pasisir tool. Utilitarian kudi are generally not pamor. I have never seen a kudi with pamor but have heard of it. I have however seen a kudi with a short handle. As to kujang there is much more than is in the Ensiklo-keris B.H.

Quote:

Originally Posted by marto suwignyo

Similar situation with the "bendho" shown on page 34 of van Zonneveld. Since this discussion started I have shown this picture to four different people who are all Javanese. I don`t have any idea at all what the name for van Zonneveld`s "bendho" is, but the other four people I have shown it to all want to call it a kitchen knife----simply "piso".Maybe the only person who could give the exactly correct name to this thing is somebody who lives where it is used.

I would find it hard to believe that a Sundanese would use the word bendo because to the Sundanese ear the word would sound funny. I think VZ made a mistake.

Quote:

Originally Posted by marto suwignyo

The name bendho is not a generic name for something: it is a specific name for a specific tool but this tool does have some variations, just as a chisel, or a sickle , has variations, however, some people will call a bendho a parang, because parang is a generic name for machete type tools.

If the bendho has a beak on top (to make it possible to be named an arit-gedhe) it can not be named a parang. However without the beak it could be a parang or a golok but that would not be the precise name. A parang is lighter like a sugarcane cutter, a Rwanda machette like in the films. A golok is finely made to function as a martial weapon as well as a utilitarian chopper. The bendho is the most humble and is not a martial weapon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MARTO SUWIGNYO

I think all this just goes to show how very difficult it can be to try to put exactly correct names on any things from this part of the world. I`m not only talking about tools and weapons, but about anything at all. If we want to name something, the name should also include time and place.

This is very true. For instance the word yoni in the keris world in Jawa now means the esoteric powers in the keris. It used to mean the female counterpart of the lingga(m). But a Solo prince used the word yoni in a seminar in the 80's and all followed suit, this story is in the Ensikeris.

....Marto, I live around 30 km from Sragen and the dalangs from my village perform in Sragen and vice versa. Around Sragen people know arit gedhe and also they should in Palur. Maybe, your wife, as a nice girl, never went to villages and forests or the kebun to collect firewood for if she did, she would have needed her arit gedhe and she would sometimes call it a bendho too. It is a desa tool. In the kota it is rarely needed.

Hormat,
K. Carita

marto suwignyo · 29th June 2005, 10:39 AM

Attention Moderators

In the post of 27th. June, by Kiai Carita, the quote panel holds both my previous post, and additional remarks interspersed with my remarks.

Could you please clarify if this is correct usage of the quote panel facility.

If it is, I am afraid that I find this style of discussion a little confusing.

Thank you for your assistance.

25th June 2005, 12:28 PM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Interesting that the swelling seems to be thought of as distinctly SE Asian; I had considered it fairly distinctly European; interesting if we ever find out which way that spread. BTW, The term recurve is AFAIK being used incorrectly here. A recurved blade is not one that curves forward (is the thinking that this is a "re"verse curve?), but one that curves one way, and then the other, usually forward and then back (ie curves and then re-curves; to re-do means to do again; curves then curves again; note that a sword is spoken of as curving; the verb form is used, even though it is not actually performing action, but just sitting there with a curve; seems odd to me suddenly, and perhaps to non-native readers of English, but language often is odd, and this usage is not limitted to weapons); thus the cutting edge of this sword is techincally recurved, though in the opposite of the usual manner; more normally recurved edges are on kukuri, for instance. More swords have a recurved cutting edge than an overall recurved shape. More usually the swelling this implies is toward the tip (ala kukuri), rather than toward the base of the blade, as here, but then that may just be of examples I've seen, and may be influenced by the prevalence of weapons over tools in my sampling of foreign blades........ Last edited by tom hyle; 25th June 2005 at 12:43 PM.

25th June 2005, 08:20 AM	#1
Kiai Carita Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 91	[QUOTE=Ian]Marto: Thanks for clarifying the name for this tool. I, too, called this particular example a golok when I acquired it. Then I found a nearly identical chopper in v. Zonneveld (p. 34) which he identified as a bendo from West Java. So, even Mr. v. Z. can make a mistake, or perhaps there is a regional variation in terms that differs from your own experience. In any case, it is very confusing for someone from a different culture trying to understand these terms from a distance. Kiai Carita says: in my travels to Pasundan region in the past I have never heard the word bendho. It sounds too funny and alien to the Sundanese ear, it is a javanese word and a javanese tool not really used in the West of Java. A Western writer with a Javanese informer might say it is a Sundanese bendho but that would be the Javanese name ... Sundanese prefer goloks. The goloks of Ciwedei are of superior quality to most bendho made in Java. Goloks have important martial usage as well.

25th June 2005, 09:48 AM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Ian, I really understand that you are a bit confused. Don't worry, so am I. The weapon you show is similar to the bendo in the book by Van Zonneveld. I have a similar one but the hilt is more a golok hilt. When I got my bendo, to give the thing at least a name, I thought it was a golok, but refering Van Zonneveld I found out it was a bendo. But I'm very happy with the input Kiai and Marto are bringing up. I know that the names of weapons and knives, machetes(choppers) do vary in the Archipello and that names are used to point out a group of weapons/tools. Just like you said Marto, a parang is a general name for a chopper. Apparantly the name bendho or bendo could be a general name for a chopper as well. Van Zonneveld describes the bendo as a tool with an agrarian purpose. And this object that I'm showing could be very well an agrarian tool. The sickle formed tip looks excelent for pruning to me. I was very surprised by the identification of "kudhi". Sure, it has a kudhi shape. But as far as I know a kudhi is described as a talismanic dagger for a priest. But as Kiai pointed out the pusaka type of a kudhi is called a kujang. May I presume that the small old version of a kudhi with a pamor blade, presented in the literature as a kudhi, that that description is not completely correct? and should be presented as a kujang? Just like Ian, I'm getting a bit dizzy but it is a most interesting subject. Marto with the reference of his wife with her background (my regards to the Mrs.) and the visions of Kiai. Thanks, Henk

26th June 2005, 02:20 AM	#5
marto suwignyo Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 52	Firstly let me talk about the word "recurved". I could well be wrong in the way I have used this word to convey my intent. To me, a "recurved blade" is a blade that is curved, and has its cutting edge on the inside of the curve. The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary defines recurve as:- "To turn back in a curve upon its previous direction. Hence, recurved or bent back; having a backwards curve." I understand this as meaning that if an object is straight, and one end is turned back towards the direction of the other end, it is recurved.There is no necessity for a curve to exist, prior to a second curve being formed, for a thing to possess the quality of being "recurved". In simple terms, "recurved" has the same meaning in the English language as "curved", but probably expresses the degree of curve by requiring a recurved thing to bend back towards its beginning position. Tom Hyle uses the khukri as an example of a recurved blade, and up to ten minutes ago I would have thought of a khukri as having a recurved blade, in that its second curve moves back towards the level of its first curve. But I now think that I would have been wrong. The correct meaning of the word does not seem to be this at all. So, as I said, my use of recurved to describe a blade that is simply curved, but perhaps lacking the degree of curve to make it recurved, is probably wrong, and for this imprecise use of English I apologise. English is a very difficult language. One could study it all one`s life and still learn something new each day. I have never looked at the dictionary meaning or "recurved" before, and Tom Hyle`s remarks forced me to check and see if was talking sense or nonsense. It wasn`t nonsense, but it was imprecise. To clarify the form of the blade in what I know as a bendho:- the blade is straight, with a curve at its front end, and its cutting edge is on the inside of the curve. KIAI yth Thank you very much for your response to my query. So, in Wonogiri, half an hour south of Solo, and in Madiun about one and a half hours east of Solo, this tool would be recognised as an "arit gedhe". Do you happen to know if it can be described as an "arit gedhe" in the area around Sragen? Yes, I understand the distinction you are making between the name and the description of "arit gedhe" and "arit sing gedhe". However, what I know as an arit gedhe is in fact gedhe. Still, as we agree, names vary. I find it interesting that you claim the small pusaka version of a kujang is called a kudhi. Kudhis and kujangs are similar, and what I have found is that in Solo nobody makes any distinction between the two. An ahli tosan aji might, but ordinary people, craftsmen, dealers, tradespeople refer to kudhi, kujang, and in fact any other small,old, curved type blades as kudhis. This common usage may be wrong, but it is the way people right now refer to these things, in one specific location. Similar situation with the "bendho" shown on page 34 of van Zonneveld. Since this discussion started I have shown this picture to four different people who are all Javanese. I don`t have any idea at all what the name for van Zonneveld`s "bendho" is, but the other four people I have shown it to all want to call it a kitchen knife----simply "piso".Maybe the only person who could give the exactly correct name to this thing is somebody who lives where it is used. Anyway, back to the kudhi/kujang. Kujangs are distinctly West Javanese, and there are several different shapes. Harsrinuksmo shows five ot six different shapes that he identifies as kujangs. He also shows several different shapes of kudhi. The kujangs look like the kudhis, and the kudhis look like the kujangs. Harsrinuksmo says that the difference is that kujangs are from West Java, kudhis are from Java and Madura, that is, to the east. He also says that a the base difference between the two is that a kudhi is a type of spear with a short shaft, while a kujang is something you hold with one hand.He shows a tool form of a kudhi, and this is exactly the shape of what I know as a bendho, but with that little axe-like projection we were talking about.This is a bit different to what I know as a luke, but it agrees exactly with what Kiai Carita knows as a kudhi. To summarise:- if we can believe Harsinuksmo, kujangs are single hand weapons that come from West Java and that are used with one hand; kudhis are short spears that come from Java and Madura; but the tool form of a kudhi has a curved blade, sharpened on the inside of the curve, and with an axe-like projection near the handle, and is to all intents and purposes a bendho with a lump. The name bendho is not a generic name for something: it is a specific name for a specific tool but this tool does have some variations, just as a chisel, or a sickle , has variations, however, some people will call a bendho a parang, because parang is a generic name for machete type tools. I think all this just goes to show how very difficult it can be to try to put exactly correct names on any things from this part of the world. I`m not only talking about tools and weapons, but about anything at all. If we want to name something, the name should also include time and place.

29th June 2005, 10:39 AM	#7
marto suwignyo Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 52	Attention Moderators In the post of 27th. June, by Kiai Carita, the quote panel holds both my previous post, and additional remarks interspersed with my remarks. Could you please clarify if this is correct usage of the quote panel facility. If it is, I am afraid that I find this style of discussion a little confusing. Thank you for your assistance.