What is the relationship between a keris and its hilt in the ancient culture?

Neo · 28th December 2010, 01:57 PM

Hey, that's one possibility I didn't look at, thanks

It would make sense if the "public face" has nothing to do with the "esoteric face". However, I still have a hard time imagining the a Tuban-Majapahit tilam upih keris with udan mas pamor, having a slender build, and radiating a dainty aura (or pasikutan demes), back in its time it was being dressed wearing a fearsome raksasha hilt. It's kind of like eating rye bread with guacamole sauce and bumbu pecel

Perhaps I am conditioned to today's norms in which such blades would be nicely dressed in ukiran Yudawinatan and warangka Ladrang, thereby supporting the overall dainty theme. However, the above arrangement is definitely post-Islamic. While my sartorial taste totally favors the more recent keris fashion style, I am still yet to find an explanation regarding the relationship between a keris and its ukiran during the sepuh era.

David · 28th December 2010, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo

However, I still have a hard time imagining the a Tuban-Majapahit tilam upih keris with udan mas pamor, having a slender build, and radiating a dainty aura (or pasikutan demes), back in its time it was being dressed wearing a fearsome raksasha hilt. It's kind of like eating rye bread with guacamole sauce and bumbu pecel

hmmm....i must say that i have never considered dhapur tilam upih to be particularly dainty...

Neo · 29th December 2010, 11:39 AM

OK, pick a dapur that you consider dainty or pasikutan demes ... do you think that in the past they would dress that in raksasha hilt? I have totally no idea, my perceptions are far from concrete at the moment ...

By the way, do they always use raksasha themes in the sepuh (Majapahit and older) era? What are the other popular themes back then?

David · 29th December 2010, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo

By the way, do they always use raksasha themes in the sepuh (Majapahit and older) era? What are the other popular themes back then?

Should i assume that since you mention Majapahit that you are asking specifically about Javanese keris?
The best way to determine this would be to view keris that were collected very early on (see collections in Dutch museums), though don't think you will find any that were collected quite that early.

PenangsangII · 30th December 2010, 09:46 AM

the rasaksa hilt may symbolize the purpose and the strength of the blade IMHO, and not a representation of "what or who" is in the blade. However, the pamor, the perabut and dhapur may also serve the above as well.....

Neo · 30th December 2010, 09:50 AM

Yes, Javanese kerises. Does the Dutch museum have pictures online? Will appreciate the URLs. Thanks!!

Neo · 30th December 2010, 10:06 AM

Thanks, Penangsang II. By the way, are raksashas and deities always the theme for Hindu-JAVANESE kerises from sepuh era? Weren't there floral or simpler, non-figure designs similar to Balinese bebondolan or Javanese Yudawinatan in the past?

David · 30th December 2010, 01:59 PM

Neo, you can look at some old collections here, but they don't show everything and the collecting dates only seem to go back as far as 1700 or so.
http://collectie.tropenmuseum.nl/nBa...=&culturenode=

28th December 2010, 01:57 PM	#1
Neo Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 59	Hey, that's one possibility I didn't look at, thanks It would make sense if the "public face" has nothing to do with the "esoteric face". However, I still have a hard time imagining the a Tuban-Majapahit tilam upih keris with udan mas pamor, having a slender build, and radiating a dainty aura (or pasikutan demes), back in its time it was being dressed wearing a fearsome raksasha hilt. It's kind of like eating rye bread with guacamole sauce and bumbu pecel Perhaps I am conditioned to today's norms in which such blades would be nicely dressed in ukiran Yudawinatan and warangka Ladrang, thereby supporting the overall dainty theme. However, the above arrangement is definitely post-Islamic. While my sartorial taste totally favors the more recent keris fashion style, I am still yet to find an explanation regarding the relationship between a keris and its ukiran during the sepuh era.

29th December 2010, 11:39 AM	#3
Neo Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 59	OK, pick a dapur that you consider dainty or pasikutan demes ... do you think that in the past they would dress that in raksasha hilt? I have totally no idea, my perceptions are far from concrete at the moment ... By the way, do they always use raksasha themes in the sepuh (Majapahit and older) era? What are the other popular themes back then?

30th December 2010, 09:46 AM	#5
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	the rasaksa hilt may symbolize the purpose and the strength of the blade IMHO, and not a representation of "what or who" is in the blade. However, the pamor, the perabut and dhapur may also serve the above as well.....

30th December 2010, 09:50 AM	#6
Neo Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 59	Yes, Javanese kerises. Does the Dutch museum have pictures online? Will appreciate the URLs. Thanks!!

30th December 2010, 10:06 AM	#7
Neo Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 59	Thanks, Penangsang II. By the way, are raksashas and deities always the theme for Hindu-JAVANESE kerises from sepuh era? Weren't there floral or simpler, non-figure designs similar to Balinese bebondolan or Javanese Yudawinatan in the past?

30th December 2010, 01:59 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Neo, you can look at some old collections here, but they don't show everything and the collecting dates only seem to go back as far as 1700 or so. http://collectie.tropenmuseum.nl/nBa...=&culturenode=