Inlay, koftgari, repousse, chasing and neillo

Yannis · 19th December 2004, 09:00 PM

Mare Rosu

Excellent work! I guess persian wootz blade with ottoman fittings

Battara · 19th December 2004, 09:11 PM

Rick

The wood is burled walnut on top. Thank you. I extrapolated the design from the kris hilt patterns in the kris shown as my avatar. I tried to match the theme done in swassa on the hilt:

Battara · 19th December 2004, 09:22 PM

Mare Rosu

Thank you for the clearer picture. I would say a mixture of hard soldering of patterned silver wire elements at the throat, then some repousse, then further down some embossing:

embossing : when first chasing the design onto the metal sheet, then afterwards flipping the sheet around and hammering from underneath. This makes a slightly different effect than repousse (where one hammers from underneath first .

Another note: it looks like the scabbard at least has Iragi influence and maybe from Bagdad.

Yannis

I would not be surprised that what you say is true. Instead of an oxidation only, niello is a thick plaque. On a plain smooth surface there would be less to which it could adhere, as opposed to a textured surface or at minimum a recessed area where it would have more to which to cling. Thus chasing or texturing the silver is most often done with the metal before niello is applied.

rahman · 7th March 2005, 02:15 AM

Where can we get the niello material, and how is it used/applied?

Alam Shah · 7th March 2005, 04:31 AM

Good question, rahman. I need some too. For touch-up work...

knife7knut · 8th March 2005, 01:40 AM

Battara:
Many thanks for the descriptions of the various techniques.I do have a question though:On the scabbard of the kindjal that Yannis posted,the beaded edges look almost like granulation. Is it possible to granulate silver or does that apply strictly to gold work?
I was curious because I read an article many years ago where a well-known knife maker was commissioned to re-create the so-called,"King Tut dagger" .He stated that one of the hardest things he had to do in the re-creation was the granuliziation of the gold that was seemingly everywhere on the knife.There were other problems working the gold but that was a real stumbling point.
My curiosity was aroused when I saw the picture. Thank you.
Cheers
Ray Smith aka knife7knut

Battara · 8th March 2005, 03:20 AM

Regarding neillo: since I don't work with neillo, I will have to look up some things and then post a reply in a day or so.

Regarding granulation: yes, granulation can be done with silver or gold. Granulation is difficult period partly it uses an oven at high temperatures. The problem partly comes in that one must get the metal at just the right temperature so that it will not melt into a pure liquid but just enough to bead by itself. Today, we don't make much use of ovens like they did long ago, especially not here in the West.

Alam Shah · 16th March 2005, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahman

Where can we get the niello material, and how is it used/applied?

Niello is a method of decorating metal objects using engraving techniques.

A method of decorating metal first used in Persia.

The desired pattern is cut rather deeply into the object to be ornamented and

the hollow filled with molten alloy of silver, copper, lead. It is then heated, rubbed with borax,

again heated, allowed to cool, rubbed smooth and burnished.

Darkened areas remain in the crevices after the object is polished.

(ref: G.C.Stone, A glossary of the construction, decoration and use of arms and armour, pg:469).

Not an easy process, skills and tools required.

Yannis · 16th March 2005, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

The desired pattern is cut rather deeply into the object to be ornamented and

the hollow filled with molten alloy of silver, copper, lead. It is then heated, rubbed with borax,

again heated, allowed to cool, rubbed smooth and burnished.

Darkened areas remain in the crevices after the object is polished.

Alam
I am not an expert on decoration but I have seen a lot of niello, new and old, and I am not sure that it is made with this technique. In places that niello is worn, there is no engraving under. I think they made it direct on silver.
Battara?

Jens Nordlunde · 16th March 2005, 01:20 PM

Guy,

I referred to two books; sorry I should have been more precise.
Th.H. Hendley: Damascening on Steel or Iron, as Practised in India.
Georg Watt: Indian Art at Delhi 1903.

Here are a few explanations of how some the different decorations were made, and at the end you will find a picture. With a little bit of luck, you will be able to see the hatched area.

Bidri.
Bidri is an ancient way of decorating metal and other materials. Originally gold and/or silver were inlaid in copper or steel. The technique is said to have come to India from Persia around the 15th century, and was/is especially practiced around Bidar (Deccan), where the technique was refined.
The object was caste in moulds of red clay, with a mixture of wax and resin covering the mould. The alloy used is zinc, copper and lead. Then the object is roughly polished and the design drawn. The design is cut out with a chisel and the grove is cleaned with e.g. limejuice, but it is not polished as the roughen surface will help to hold the silver wire. The wire is hammered down in the cut out design. A combination of chemicals from common salt, saltpetre, copper sulphate and Sal ammoniac is applied, after which the metal turns jet-black. Another source mentions: The Bidri design is dipped in a boiled solution of natural earth found only at the Bidar Fort. A final polishing with sandpaper, charcoal and coconut and the shining silver is in sharp contrast to alloy.

Damascening.
A grove is cut in the metal and a gold or silver thread is hammered into the grove. The grove is two third of the thread. The bottom and the sides of the grove are left rough to make the thread stick better.
Nearly all men engaged in damascening in the Punjab are Mohamedans. In the Rajputana, in addition, Hindo workmen are employed.
In Sirohi true damascening is made at its best (Hendley: Damascene).

Gilding.
When gilding, the part of the weapon to be decorated is finely cut cross or crosshatched with a graver, and treated with acid to give it a broken surface. The very thin gold or silver leave is rolled on, and the decoration heated and burnished.
When a very thin gold or silver plate carefully is hammered onto another material, especially iron/steel it will make a molecular connection with the other material.
Another way to do it is to do it electrolytic.

Koftgari (false Damascening).
Koftgari or false Damascening is made by crosshatching the area to be decorated deeper that by gilding, the crosshatching is then cleaned with lime, and silver or gold thread is hammered on to the hatched area in the design wanted. The blade is heated and the decoration is either left to stand in relief or filed down to the surface. The decoration is then polished, often with an agate.

Niello.
Niello is said to have come from Egypt, where it was used for decoration in the classical times, from where it spread to Europe in the middle Ages. It was known in Kiev in the tenth to thirteenth centuries and reappeared in Russia in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, where it remained in use in the imperial period.
Niello (latin. Nigellus=blackish) is a black metallic alloy of sulfur, copper, silver and usually lead. The metal surface is brushed with a borax solution as a flux, and the alloy is rubbed into the engraved pattern on silver or gold, and then fired. When the object has cooled, and has been polished the surface is shining blank and the Niello black.

Jens

19th December 2004, 09:11 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Rick The wood is burled walnut on top. Thank you. I extrapolated the design from the kris hilt patterns in the kris shown as my avatar. I tried to match the theme done in swassa on the hilt: Attached Images

16th March 2005, 01:20 PM	#10
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Guy, I referred to two books; sorry I should have been more precise. Th.H. Hendley: Damascening on Steel or Iron, as Practised in India. Georg Watt: Indian Art at Delhi 1903. Here are a few explanations of how some the different decorations were made, and at the end you will find a picture. With a little bit of luck, you will be able to see the hatched area. Bidri. Bidri is an ancient way of decorating metal and other materials. Originally gold and/or silver were inlaid in copper or steel. The technique is said to have come to India from Persia around the 15th century, and was/is especially practiced around Bidar (Deccan), where the technique was refined. The object was caste in moulds of red clay, with a mixture of wax and resin covering the mould. The alloy used is zinc, copper and lead. Then the object is roughly polished and the design drawn. The design is cut out with a chisel and the grove is cleaned with e.g. limejuice, but it is not polished as the roughen surface will help to hold the silver wire. The wire is hammered down in the cut out design. A combination of chemicals from common salt, saltpetre, copper sulphate and Sal ammoniac is applied, after which the metal turns jet-black. Another source mentions: The Bidri design is dipped in a boiled solution of natural earth found only at the Bidar Fort. A final polishing with sandpaper, charcoal and coconut and the shining silver is in sharp contrast to alloy. Damascening. A grove is cut in the metal and a gold or silver thread is hammered into the grove. The grove is two third of the thread. The bottom and the sides of the grove are left rough to make the thread stick better. Nearly all men engaged in damascening in the Punjab are Mohamedans. In the Rajputana, in addition, Hindo workmen are employed. In Sirohi true damascening is made at its best (Hendley: Damascene). Gilding. When gilding, the part of the weapon to be decorated is finely cut cross or crosshatched with a graver, and treated with acid to give it a broken surface. The very thin gold or silver leave is rolled on, and the decoration heated and burnished. When a very thin gold or silver plate carefully is hammered onto another material, especially iron/steel it will make a molecular connection with the other material. Another way to do it is to do it electrolytic. Koftgari (false Damascening). Koftgari or false Damascening is made by crosshatching the area to be decorated deeper that by gilding, the crosshatching is then cleaned with lime, and silver or gold thread is hammered on to the hatched area in the design wanted. The blade is heated and the decoration is either left to stand in relief or filed down to the surface. The decoration is then polished, often with an agate. Niello. Niello is said to have come from Egypt, where it was used for decoration in the classical times, from where it spread to Europe in the middle Ages. It was known in Kiev in the tenth to thirteenth centuries and reappeared in Russia in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, where it remained in use in the imperial period. Niello (latin. Nigellus=blackish) is a black metallic alloy of sulfur, copper, silver and usually lead. The metal surface is brushed with a borax solution as a flux, and the alloy is rubbed into the engraved pattern on silver or gold, and then fired. When the object has cooled, and has been polished the surface is shining blank and the Niello black. Jens Attached Images

19th December 2004, 09:00 PM	#1
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Mare Rosu Excellent work! I guess persian wootz blade with ottoman fittings

19th December 2004, 09:22 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Mare Rosu Thank you for the clearer picture. I would say a mixture of hard soldering of patterned silver wire elements at the throat, then some repousse, then further down some embossing: embossing : when first chasing the design onto the metal sheet, then afterwards flipping the sheet around and hammering from underneath. This makes a slightly different effect than repousse (where one hammers from underneath first . Another note: it looks like the scabbard at least has Iragi influence and maybe from Bagdad. Yannis I would not be surprised that what you say is true. Instead of an oxidation only, niello is a thick plaque. On a plain smooth surface there would be less to which it could adhere, as opposed to a textured surface or at minimum a recessed area where it would have more to which to cling. Thus chasing or texturing the silver is most often done with the metal before niello is applied.

7th March 2005, 02:15 AM	#4
rahman Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 84	Where can we get the niello material, and how is it used/applied?

7th March 2005, 04:31 AM	#5
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Good question, rahman. I need some too. For touch-up work...

8th March 2005, 01:40 AM	#6
knife7knut Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 31	Battara: Many thanks for the descriptions of the various techniques.I do have a question though:On the scabbard of the kindjal that Yannis posted,the beaded edges look almost like granulation. Is it possible to granulate silver or does that apply strictly to gold work? I was curious because I read an article many years ago where a well-known knife maker was commissioned to re-create the so-called,"King Tut dagger" .He stated that one of the hardest things he had to do in the re-creation was the granuliziation of the gold that was seemingly everywhere on the knife.There were other problems working the gold but that was a real stumbling point. My curiosity was aroused when I saw the picture. Thank you. Cheers Ray Smith aka knife7knut

8th March 2005, 03:20 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Regarding neillo: since I don't work with neillo, I will have to look up some things and then post a reply in a day or so. Regarding granulation: yes, granulation can be done with silver or gold. Granulation is difficult period partly it uses an oven at high temperatures. The problem partly comes in that one must get the metal at just the right temperature so that it will not melt into a pure liquid but just enough to bead by itself. Today, we don't make much use of ovens like they did long ago, especially not here in the West.