Tourist trinkets? Bich'Hwa, Khatar, Jambiya

Emanuel · 17th December 2010, 03:25 AM

I'll try to address some of your points.

The narrowness of Indian hilts has been discussed many times. In most cases we can either accept that the people who intended to use the katar (jamadhar) were of smaller stature, with smaller hands. In some cases also note that weapons were made for children.

The khanjar is representative of Qajar era styles. "Jambiya" was historically attributed to the Saudi/Yemeni variety of curved daggers. Khanjar is a broader term used in Oman and other Arab speaking or even Muslim countries outside the Arabian Peninsula.

About wootz, while there may be evidence of its use by Vikings this was very limited and through trade. Perhaps you are confusing with pattern-welded "damascus". Damascus is often used as an umbrella term for most any metal with a strong pattern. It can be mechanical or chemical. The first consists of forge welding steels with different carbon contents, twisting and folding them in order to produce a more or less homogeneous bar of steel with the same carbon content all the way through. When etched, the different types of steel show a different shade, depending on carbon content. This technology was indeed used by Celts, Vikings, and almost every other steel using culture on the planet.

The second, wootz, is "crucible steel" or essentially cast steel first produced in India ~2000 years ago. The cooling cycle of molten steel was controlled to produce a very specific crystalline structure in the steel. The pattern comes from this chemical structure, not from the mechanical welding of different metals. It was completely homogeneous and very hard.

Hope this helps, all of these points have been discussed many times on the forum and there are lots of threads on wootz and Indian weapons.

Regards,
Emanuel

- Some pics from Oriental Arms -
The top one is a wootz ingot
The next two pictures are of wootz katar (jamadhar) and shamshir blades
The bottom is of a pattern-welded yataghan blade with the "Turkish ribbon" pattern

Battara · 17th December 2010, 04:06 AM

When it comes to wootz like what is on the katar and khanjar/jambiya, I would send it to Philip Tom because he can polish it correctly and then etch it correctly.

TVV · 17th December 2010, 06:51 AM

Thanks for the pictures Manolo,

To me the hilt material looks like walruss ivory from the close-ups, as I can see the inner dentine part in the middle of the hilt.

delor · 17th December 2010, 10:37 AM

Yes that is walrus ivory, which was the most usual material with this kinf of dagger.

celtan · 17th December 2010, 06:32 PM

Interesting, I would have thought that walrus would be a rare animal in those latitudes. Thanks!

So, does anyone have an idea of the costs usually associated to etching andpolishing these blades "properly"by a proffessional? I don't have an inkling of the market value of the items in question, s I don't know if doing that is economically sound...A similar situation arose wit a couple officer's katanas I own.

Best

Manuel

Quote:

Originally Posted by delor

Yes that is walrus ivory, which was the most usual material with this kinf of dagger.

delor · 17th December 2010, 08:32 PM

Yes the walrus is more than rare in Persia, but walrus ivory used to come Russia.

Battara · 18th December 2010, 12:03 AM

Walrus was traded all around the area from Russia.

Ask Philip Tom who is still a member of this forum. He specializes in polishing and etching wootz properly.

17th December 2010, 03:25 AM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	I'll try to address some of your points. The narrowness of Indian hilts has been discussed many times. In most cases we can either accept that the people who intended to use the katar (jamadhar) were of smaller stature, with smaller hands. In some cases also note that weapons were made for children. The khanjar is representative of Qajar era styles. "Jambiya" was historically attributed to the Saudi/Yemeni variety of curved daggers. Khanjar is a broader term used in Oman and other Arab speaking or even Muslim countries outside the Arabian Peninsula. About wootz, while there may be evidence of its use by Vikings this was very limited and through trade. Perhaps you are confusing with pattern-welded "damascus". Damascus is often used as an umbrella term for most any metal with a strong pattern. It can be mechanical or chemical. The first consists of forge welding steels with different carbon contents, twisting and folding them in order to produce a more or less homogeneous bar of steel with the same carbon content all the way through. When etched, the different types of steel show a different shade, depending on carbon content. This technology was indeed used by Celts, Vikings, and almost every other steel using culture on the planet. The second, wootz, is "crucible steel" or essentially cast steel first produced in India ~2000 years ago. The cooling cycle of molten steel was controlled to produce a very specific crystalline structure in the steel. The pattern comes from this chemical structure, not from the mechanical welding of different metals. It was completely homogeneous and very hard. Hope this helps, all of these points have been discussed many times on the forum and there are lots of threads on wootz and Indian weapons. Regards, Emanuel - Some pics from Oriental Arms - The top one is a wootz ingot The next two pictures are of wootz katar (jamadhar) and shamshir blades The bottom is of a pattern-welded yataghan blade with the "Turkish ribbon" pattern Attached Images Last edited by Emanuel; 17th December 2010 at 03:36 AM.

17th December 2010, 04:06 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,346	When it comes to wootz like what is on the katar and khanjar/jambiya, I would send it to Philip Tom because he can polish it correctly and then etch it correctly.

17th December 2010, 06:51 AM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,727	Thanks for the pictures Manolo, To me the hilt material looks like walruss ivory from the close-ups, as I can see the inner dentine part in the middle of the hilt.

17th December 2010, 10:37 AM	#4
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	Yes that is walrus ivory, which was the most usual material with this kinf of dagger.

17th December 2010, 08:32 PM	#6
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	Yes the walrus is more than rare in Persia, but walrus ivory used to come Russia.

18th December 2010, 12:03 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,346	Walrus was traded all around the area from Russia. Ask Philip Tom who is still a member of this forum. He specializes in polishing and etching wootz properly.