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#1 |
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I had a quite different experience in Tbilisi. I looked everywere I could and went to bazar near the river at least 3 times. No khevsur swords! Only bad kindjals and russian army stuff.
I went to more Georgian cities and villages. I talked with a lot of people. No khevsur swords! I also saw the weapons that dancing groups use. I hadled some of them. They look like khevsur but they are not! They are simpler in construncion, different materials. Look photos. Sorry for the quality. It was difficult and I am not used of theater photos. If you can find (live or video) Georgian dance with swords, see it. It is amazing. These guys really fight with fierce as they dance. As the blades strike there is light like fireworks! ![]() The blades that are used in this dance are real steel but they are full of nicks. ![]() Last edited by Yannis; 23rd June 2005 at 12:32 PM. |
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#2 |
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During the Soviet regime, ownership of weapons was so strongly regulated that it was for all intents and purposes forbidden. Even buying a hunting knife in a specialized store required police check and permission (presumably, one could not slit somebody else's throat with a kitchen knife bought freely). Being caught by the police with a "finka" (a small knife in a style of Finnish puukko) landed one in jail for a couple of years.
Thus, the Caucasians were understandably very leery of preserving their weapons at home and many were destroyed.Anything of artistic and historian value was confiscated to the museums and likely ended up hanging on the walls of local Party poo-bahs. As to Tatar history, one shoul go to Lithuania, to the Trakai castle: only 20 mi from Vilnius, and an astonishing place of Lithuanian, Tatar and Caraite culture and, yes, weapons. I still remember dozens of old curved swords..... Last edited by ariel; 23rd June 2005 at 11:50 PM. |
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#3 |
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Interesting mode of wear for that kinzhal.
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#4 | |
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#5 | |
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![]() Additionally many sword types (court swords, anything with coat of arms etc.) were considered to be signs of nobility and the last thing anyone needed is to be a known nobleman ![]() |
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#6 |
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But when Soviet regime collapsed, kindjals and shashkas came to Turkish market like rain. Full silver scabbarded ones were sold for 250-300 dollars. And among them, there were plenty of top quality ones for a bit higher prices,which are nowadays extremely rare , like gold worked ivory scabbards with blades full of gold koftgari. I even saw Sheikh Shamil's own kindjal( not in hand. just picture long after it was sold).Then the prices increased dramatically, but in time. So, when I combine this fact with what you tell, perhaps, most of the weapons were not destroyed or left to rust, but simply were taken and "secured" by local party authorities which were a significant percentage in population, or army officers, police etc. , and when borders opened, they turned these stocks into cash.I am afraid we can count even museums among the market suppliers.
regards |
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#7 | |
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Antiquities were extremely cheap in USSR. Gvarnerius' violin costed a few hundred dollars, with Shteiner and everyone else being even way cheaper. Firstprint of Napoleon's memoirs costed 10$ (5 rubles) using official exchange rate, and 1.80$ using the one of the black market. I would say that nowadays in Russia the prices are probably way above ebay, when it comes to swords. |
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#8 | |
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Thus, from now on, British chefs will have to use either short pointy knives or long and round-tip ones. The criminals, poor souls, will have either to slit their victim throats or, God forbid, break the law and resharpen their long knives. |
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#9 |
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Ha-ha-ha. Well, here are the statues of the city of Evanston, Illinois, USA:
"No person shall possess, in the City of Evanston, the following: ..... (C) Any dangerous weapon as defined in Section 9-8-1(A). .... DANGEROUS WEAPONS: (A) Bludgeon, blackjack, slingshot, sand club, sap, metal knuckles or any knife the blade of which may be opened by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife, incendiary devices or any other weapon or instrument of like character. (B) Dagger, dirk, billy, dangerous knife, razor, stiletto, broken bottle or other piece of glass, stun gun, or taser, weighted gloves, bow, arrows or any other weapon or instrument of like character. " As you can see posession of broken glass (!!!!) is a crime down here ![]() |
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#10 |
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Not so funny what a broken beer bottle held by the neck can do .
![]() In MA they're considered a deadly weapon under the law . I have seen the results first hand . ![]() But we digress .... |
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#11 |
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The peasants are revolting
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#12 |
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Since we are talking about dances with swords, here is the clip:
http://www.irakli.ru/music/legend.wmv Just a small portion of it is a traditional fighting dance, and unfortunately we already see chinese influence (people flying on strings), but it's not bad. |
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#13 | |
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![]() Stupid laws by ignorant people ![]() Rivkin, That's the nicest thing I saw in a while. I like that music very much! Where i can buy a CD? |
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#14 |
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[QUOTE=ariel]During the Soviet regime, ownership of weapons was so strongly regulated that it was for all intents and purposes forbidden. Even buying a hunting knife in a specialized store required police check and permission (presumably, one could not slit somebody else's throat with a kitchen knife bought freely). Being caught by the police with a "finka" (a small knife in a style of Finnish puukko) landed one in jail for a couple of years.
QUOTE] the laws havent changed , just the enforcemant has relaxed, actualy there is different classes of knive ,, basicly a knife like a pukko can , and could be purchased by anyone,, as with a cooking knife, but anything , like a locking pocket knife, of a military knife or a large hunting knife needed a paper form the mvd, or it needed one to own a gun, swords and other such items were illeagle ,, unless a special permit was granted , ,, and this didnt happen often,, ,, a "fiver" was a prison knife, , knives not being allowed to imates in the siberian gulags, found possessing one gave the owner an extra 5 years on his sentence... |
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#15 |
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For personal reasons I went to this topic and just have to add something.
The Crimean Tatar swords are rare because all weapons in Crimea were confiscated and armorer workshops closed when the Russians annexed Crimea in 1783. That was one of the earliest actions of Prince Grigoryj Potemkin, who reigned over the newly acquired territory. Polish-Lithuanian Tatars constituted just a minority of the Crimean population that moved up north and settled within the borders of the Great Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Over there they gradually were exposed to the European weapons and their old ones largely were lost to posterity. I managed to get an old (1925) article about Crimean Tamgas by a great Crimean Tatar writer, translator, polyglot, calligrapher, historian and ethnographer Osman Akchokrakly. He managed to collect ~400 tamgas and freely admitted that at least 400 more must have existed. When a son got married, he left his father’s home and established his own , he then usually took his father’s tamga and modified it a bit, and so on. Thus, there are clan tamgas and many sub-clan tamgas. Akchokrakly was fired from the university where he taught languages and history in 1934, went into hiding with his sister in Baku, but the NKVD ( earlier name for KGB) found him there, accused him of being a spy and executed him. He was only 47. Crimean Tatars were rounded up in 1944 and their entire population was exiled by Stalin to Central Asia. Only few managed to survive and go back to Crimea in 1967. In the 1990s about 260,000 came back. But they neither got their lands/homes back, nor compensated for the losses. Another tragic page of Soviet history. Now there are only few Russian historians trying to research Crimean history. God bless them! Last edited by ariel; 3rd January 2023 at 04:43 PM. |
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#16 |
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This is most informative and intriguing, thank you for reviving this old thread and topic!
Actually the subject of tamgas is pretty esoteric, and I recall many conversations with Iaroslav Lebedynsky back in the 90s when he was writing on tamgas. I have a manuscript of his work, which I am not sure if was published. It seems tamgas are regarded as a notable source in Polish heraldry, and I'm sure as noted, became a basis for many such symbols and devices as used in many ethnic cases in Caucasian regions as well as in Russia and others. As these are devised independently it would be hard to determine specifics but that tamgas were a compelling source is certainly likely. As Gotowski noted in his book on Tatar arms, only one example of a Tatar sword exists he is aware of with a tamga, to which Kirill Rivkin agreed. It was noted in my discussions with Lebedynsky that tamgas were not known on Caucasian swords. However, I have an example of a shashka which while appearing to be Daghestani, Rivkin noted it is likely by a Daghestani craftsman in Vladikavkaz. On the scabbard chape is a niello device which is compellingly like a tamga, so much so that Lebedynsky published it as such in an article he published. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 4th January 2023 at 04:53 AM. |
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#17 |
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Jim,
Thank you for the great input. The issue of tamgas is very incomplete because of its complexity and lack of our knowledge which separate groups owned them. Mahmud Kashgari in 1073 wrote that Chingiz Khan gave a separate sign ( tamga) to each of the 17 tribes of his empire and that only the Oguz tribe gave birth to 22 clans, in their turn giving birth to sub-clans. Regretfully, there is no information on the structure of the Tatar clan. This is the reason why Akchokrakly who was working only in Crimea found 400 different tamgas and suggested that at least the same number may be found in the future. 800 tamgas among a limited, homogeneous, well-defined population living in a relatively compact geographical space tell us that the number of tamgas went up astronomically since Batu Khan of the Ulus Juchi till the beginning of 20th century! As to the image on the scabbard chape of the Daghestani shashka, I do not think it is a tamga, because: First, this looks more like an image of a leafy branch that is found quite often on the shashka scabbard fittings. Second, Circassia became free of the Crimean vassalage and influence since the end of the 18th century ( Crimea was occupied by Russia in 1783). This shashka can be dated to the Daghestani mass production in a multitude of Caucasian and even Russian workshops i.e. end of the 19th - early 20th century. Thirdly, Daghestan was never influenced by the Crimean artistic motives. I am looking for any dissent by the Forumites. Our collective pro/con argumentation might be very helpful. But I am more intrigued by the niello image on the pommel (?) presumably put on the bare back of it (?). This one does look like a tamga. I checked several sources of tamga images, including of course the Akchokrakly's article , and could not find an analog. Curiousier and curiousier....:-) Last edited by ariel; 4th January 2023 at 08:28 AM. |
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#18 |
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I am unclear on reference to pommel, the image of the tamga is from the rounded scabbard chape (perhaps I am using wrong term in shashka nomenclature).
I am trying to find my notes from Iaroslav back in the 90s when he was writing his various work on tamgas. His primary interest was the Sarmatians and their influences in Ukraine and surrounding regions if I recall. As I noted, he agreed with the suggestion that this niello symbol on my scabbard chape was indeed a tamga, and published it in one of his articles as such. I did find my copy of "Tamgas and Runes, Magic Numbers and Magic Symbols" ("Metropolitan Museum Journal 8, 1973, pp.165-173), where it is noted that "..as early as the 1st century AD tamgas appear among the Sarmatian tribes north of the Black Sea ". Mr. Nickel describes these citing data from Hans Janischen: "Die Bildzeichen der Koniglichen Hoheit bei den Iranischen Volkkern" (Bonn, 1956). Here some of the examples seem to have a arrowhead element and some a crescent moon and 8 point star, among others, but some of similar gestalt,. What is compelling in other sources is the comparison of this 'tamga' on my shashka to the so called arsenal mark of St.Irenes in Istanbul, which is described as a 'mondhugelzeichen' (=moon upon a hill) symbol in Janischen (op. cit). This tamga, an arc (crescent moon) looks more like horns, and is above either square or rounded geometric shapes representing a hill. This is noted as a Sarmatian tamga and having resemblance in degree to some Glagolitic numerals. The tamga described as St. Irenes (found on arms stored there until 19th c.) is a 'moon' at the end of a staff (?) with lines on either side (Nickel ,op. cit. fig.13). According to the Leiden Manuscript Or. 419W (Nickel), this mark is first of 24 tamgas and belongs to Kayi tribe of Turkic tribes of Aral Steppes 9th c. This became of course known in Istanbul and used accordingly as these became the Turkish nation. from; "Arsenalzeichen oder Beshau" (Eduard Lenz, "Zeitschrift fur Historische Waffen und Kostumkunde" 6: 1912-14.. p.299-303. The attached page with image of the St.Irenes mark is not from this source, but uncited source. I am not suggesting that the tamga on my sword scabbard has anything to do with St.Irenes, but noting that it is similar in configuration to the moon over hill in Janische, as well as the St. Irenes mark, both descrjbed as tamgas. Which returns to the question, just how unusual is it for a tamga to appear on a sword in these contexts? |
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