Blade cross cut shape description

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much for the backup Glen on the 'hollow' term, which seems to be somewhat esoteric as to its history and application. Your access to these kinds of resources is as always extremely impressive!!!

I understand what Manuel is going for here, a bit more descriptive term for what seems to be a rather unusual geometric shape in cross section, and eludes the standard terms such as 'triangular' or three edged 'trefoil' .
The hollow term seems defeated in degree as an accurate term as it is more applicable toward the noted German process for fullering to lighten and strengthen blades, and may refer to various cross sections.

The term 'foliate' seems better applied to decorative style than to geometric shape, and Im not sure 'keeled' will work either as it is a structural term which brings to mind instantly the boat cross section in which the arcs are convex rather than concave. Excellent word there Fearn!! Mellifluous!! and well placed suggestion.......Manolo, your sense of humor is as always, priceless! on the keeling term.

While we may still be at 'square' one trying to find a better geometrically based term for the section on these blades, I really admire the excellent interaction here in working toward ideas.

All the best,
Jim

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thanks very much for the backup Glen on the 'hollow' term, which seems to be somewhat esoteric as to its history and application. Your access to these kinds of resources is as always extremely impressive!!!

I understand what Manuel is going for here, a bit more descriptive term for what seems to be a rather unusual geometric shape in cross section, and eludes the standard terms such as 'triangular' or three edged 'trefoil' .
The hollow term seems defeated in degree as an accurate term as it is more applicable toward the noted German process for fullering to lighten and strengthen blades, and may refer to various cross sections.

The term 'foliate' seems better applied to decorative style than to geometric shape, and Im not sure 'keeled' will work either as it is a structural term which brings to mind instantly the boat cross section in which the arcs are convex rather than concave. Excellent word there Fearn!! Mellifluous!! and well placed suggestion.......Manolo, your sense of humor is as always, priceless! on the keeling term.

While we may still be at 'square' one trying to find a better geometrically based term for the section on these blades, I really admire the excellent interaction here in working toward ideas.

All the best,
Jim

There is an old Scott Bubar thread somewhere when the cross-section was being dissected in terminology.

The hollow term seems defeated in degree as an accurate term as it is more applicable toward the noted German process for fullering to lighten and strengthen blades, and may refer to various cross sections.

I would somewhat disagree with that logic. Fullering was regarded in texts long before the Hollow Swords Company came along in the economy of the late 17th century. Fullering sword blades was certainly nothing new, pretty much world wide.

I do agree with my thoughts that perhaps a cutler's term makes more sense than making something up to suit a passing fancy.

Cheers

GC

PS

Ah, here is the thread I was remembering
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=18347

E.B. writes there

Hi Scott,

I do see what you mean. I guess it depends on how Hope was using the term "Konigsmark". In the late 1700s was this term used as we use it, to define a hollowground (usually), triangular blade with an expanded forte for parrying? I wonder because by the time of Hope's writing, the colichemarde was way out of fashion, although I imagine you could still see them on the street. Is he possibly using "Konigsmark" as a catchall term for smallsword blades? I don't have a copy of Hope, so I'll defer to your judgement on how he uses the term!

By the way, last night after I posted, I came across a photo of a narrow 3 cornered blade in the current Wallis and Wallis auction. This one is only 28" long, is stamped with a crown and IR, and is unfullered. From the photo, it may be a bit wider than the ones I mentioned yesterday. The hilt is of the sideloop variety, although this one has an additional scrolled sidebranch coming off the
knucklebow. Here's a photo!

--ElJay

Simply to put forth that period descriptions may be a better fit for describing just about anything. In that case an individual associated with a blade type.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by celtan

: ... So I guess we have settled on "Keeled Hollow Triangular". Fine and dandy...

Never; better call it "triple concave blade". How's that ?

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...Now you're talkin!!! That works for me, nicely done!!
You guys are the best,
Jim

Originally Posted by celtan

: ... Nopey Nando, an estoc's triangular blade can be triply-concave,without having the center valley groove. What I'm looking here is for a term that can only be employed to describe this very strange shape, with the center keel formed from the form of the opposite concave sides/facets/mesas. Keeled is perfect, although my original foliate would have done the trick. But since you don't like foliate, I'm willing to use the alternate Keeled or "de quilla". I don't think the word "quillado" exists in The Language...

Then, we could always create it...Hmmm.: )

Yes, we have "quilhado" over here; from the verb quilhar, which either means to mount a keel or to prejudice someone.

-

[cornelistromp]

This kind of crosscut is called ahorn leaf, in europeische hieb und stiechwaffen by Mueller and Koenig

Best regards

[celtan]

Danke Schoen, freund!


At last, proper terminology.


See Nando? _Leaf_, like in "foliate", 'member?

I was right, you were wrong Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah,

Best

(Der) M (eister)

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

This kind of crosscut is called ahorn leaf, in Europeische hieb und steichwaffen by Mueller and Koenig

Best regards

[Jim McDougall]

LOL!!!
Beautiful Cornelis, thank you for finally resolving this with the actual term used....notes adjusted accordingly.

Manolo, you have been right all along and actually when it comes down to it, botanical terms are indeed often used in sword descriptions.....leaf shaped, in China the 'willow leaf', as are some of the Indian blade shapes.

Glen, thank you for mentioning Scott, it makes me happy to see him still in the tumble here!!! He was a great guy!!!

All the best,
Jim

[cornelistromp]

your welcome,

herewith also some other cross blade shapes

best,

[fernando]

Originally Posted by celtan

... See Nando? ... I was right, you were wrong Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah,

Best

(Der) M (eister)

Alright, alright
You can take the cup with you ... M(eister) Manolin

[celtan]

Will the cup be filled with a tawny Oporto?

: )

Best regards to all

Manolo

Originally Posted by fernando

Alright, alright
You can take the cup with you ... M(eister) Manolin