Blade cross cut shape description

[celtan]

C'mon Nando,

You're just envious that I coined that term before you did...

Its waxing poetic'. Simple, concise , beautifully apropos, a delight to utter. Heck, it's even eco-friendly!

Just think of the alternative "lamina de tres quinas e mesas concavas"...


Egad!



Take care

Manolo

Originally Posted by fernando

Funny; i find 'foliate' ugly ... and clumsy .
You're right, there must be something more technical ... and well put.

[fearn]

You know, I was just looking up the terms for leaves, to see if there was something mellifluous that might work here. For leaves, the term is "keeled" as if the leaf blade were keeled like a boat.

You could call it a keeled triangular blade. That's slightly better than single fullered triangular, which was my other idea. I still like epee blade, though.

Best,

F

[celtan]

You're keeling me here!

( Actually, a rather good suggestion. )

Best


M

Originally Posted by fearn

You know, I was just looking up the terms for leaves, to see if there was something mellifluous that might work here. For leaves, the term is "keeled" as if the leaf blade were keeled like a boat.

You could call it a keeled triangular blade. That's slightly better than single fullered triangular, which was my other idea. I still like epee blade, though.

Best,

F

[Hotspur]

Regarding the term "hollow" that Jim mentions, I had come across a reference to that while doing some research of something else. The following, a post over tp myArmoury but I may have mentioned my finds elsewhere.

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=5468

While doing yet more work with German cutlers moving to England, what Howy (Albion swords) mentions makes a good bit of sense and maybe the term some may be looking for in better (universally?) describing the cross-section can be found in looking at German/Prussian cutlery terminology.

The text of those findings pasted here

From 1704

Sword-blade Company, Bill.
The Earl of Stamford reported from the Lords Committees, the Bill, intituled, "An Act to discharge the Governor and Company for making hollow Sword Blades in England, of the Sum of Eighteen Thousand Eight Hundred Sixty-four Pounds Seven Shillings, One Penny Half-penny, by Mistake overcharged in the Purchase-money for several forfeited and other Estates and Interests in Ireland, purchased by them," as fit to pass, without any Amendment.


Then in 1708

An Act for limiting a Time for Persons to come in and make their Claims to any of the forfeited Estates, and other Interests in Ireland, sold by the Trustees for Sale of those Estates to the Governor and Company for making hollow Sword-blades in England, and divers other Purchasers.

There is quite a lot of information out there in simple searches for the Hollow Sword Blades Company but I had first encountered it in searches at the
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/ A worthwhile venue to register for, as you can cookie/shelf articles you arew reading/searching/researching.

This quickly if of interest and the town being set up in control by the company. No doubt some of the legal issues that followed were sprung from that.
http://www.northantrim.com/aboutcushendall.htm

Cheers

GC

P.S.

The original search string query there might still work.
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/res...w+sword+blades

nope but there's lot on that site and now generally on the net at large

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much for the backup Glen on the 'hollow' term, which seems to be somewhat esoteric as to its history and application. Your access to these kinds of resources is as always extremely impressive!!!

I understand what Manuel is going for here, a bit more descriptive term for what seems to be a rather unusual geometric shape in cross section, and eludes the standard terms such as 'triangular' or three edged 'trefoil' .
The hollow term seems defeated in degree as an accurate term as it is more applicable toward the noted German process for fullering to lighten and strengthen blades, and may refer to various cross sections.

The term 'foliate' seems better applied to decorative style than to geometric shape, and Im not sure 'keeled' will work either as it is a structural term which brings to mind instantly the boat cross section in which the arcs are convex rather than concave. Excellent word there Fearn!! Mellifluous!! and well placed suggestion.......Manolo, your sense of humor is as always, priceless! on the keeling term.

While we may still be at 'square' one trying to find a better geometrically based term for the section on these blades, I really admire the excellent interaction here in working toward ideas.

All the best,
Jim

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thanks very much for the backup Glen on the 'hollow' term, which seems to be somewhat esoteric as to its history and application. Your access to these kinds of resources is as always extremely impressive!!!

I understand what Manuel is going for here, a bit more descriptive term for what seems to be a rather unusual geometric shape in cross section, and eludes the standard terms such as 'triangular' or three edged 'trefoil' .
The hollow term seems defeated in degree as an accurate term as it is more applicable toward the noted German process for fullering to lighten and strengthen blades, and may refer to various cross sections.

The term 'foliate' seems better applied to decorative style than to geometric shape, and Im not sure 'keeled' will work either as it is a structural term which brings to mind instantly the boat cross section in which the arcs are convex rather than concave. Excellent word there Fearn!! Mellifluous!! and well placed suggestion.......Manolo, your sense of humor is as always, priceless! on the keeling term.

While we may still be at 'square' one trying to find a better geometrically based term for the section on these blades, I really admire the excellent interaction here in working toward ideas.

All the best,
Jim

There is an old Scott Bubar thread somewhere when the cross-section was being dissected in terminology.

The hollow term seems defeated in degree as an accurate term as it is more applicable toward the noted German process for fullering to lighten and strengthen blades, and may refer to various cross sections.

I would somewhat disagree with that logic. Fullering was regarded in texts long before the Hollow Swords Company came along in the economy of the late 17th century. Fullering sword blades was certainly nothing new, pretty much world wide.

I do agree with my thoughts that perhaps a cutler's term makes more sense than making something up to suit a passing fancy.

Cheers

GC

PS

Ah, here is the thread I was remembering
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=18347

E.B. writes there

Hi Scott,

I do see what you mean. I guess it depends on how Hope was using the term "Konigsmark". In the late 1700s was this term used as we use it, to define a hollowground (usually), triangular blade with an expanded forte for parrying? I wonder because by the time of Hope's writing, the colichemarde was way out of fashion, although I imagine you could still see them on the street. Is he possibly using "Konigsmark" as a catchall term for smallsword blades? I don't have a copy of Hope, so I'll defer to your judgement on how he uses the term!

By the way, last night after I posted, I came across a photo of a narrow 3 cornered blade in the current Wallis and Wallis auction. This one is only 28" long, is stamped with a crown and IR, and is unfullered. From the photo, it may be a bit wider than the ones I mentioned yesterday. The hilt is of the sideloop variety, although this one has an additional scrolled sidebranch coming off the
knucklebow. Here's a photo!

--ElJay

Simply to put forth that period descriptions may be a better fit for describing just about anything. In that case an individual associated with a blade type.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by celtan

: ... So I guess we have settled on "Keeled Hollow Triangular". Fine and dandy...

Never; better call it "triple concave blade". How's that ?

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...Now you're talkin!!! That works for me, nicely done!!
You guys are the best,
Jim

Originally Posted by celtan

: ... Nopey Nando, an estoc's triangular blade can be triply-concave,without having the center valley groove. What I'm looking here is for a term that can only be employed to describe this very strange shape, with the center keel formed from the form of the opposite concave sides/facets/mesas. Keeled is perfect, although my original foliate would have done the trick. But since you don't like foliate, I'm willing to use the alternate Keeled or "de quilla". I don't think the word "quillado" exists in The Language...

Then, we could always create it...Hmmm.: )

Yes, we have "quilhado" over here; from the verb quilhar, which either means to mount a keel or to prejudice someone.

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