Blade cross cut shape description

celtan · 12th December 2010, 02:00 PM

Hi Guys,

Once again, trefoil literally means "three edges" ( tres filos) , and applies to _any_ triangular crosscut blade. I know, I feel, I'm sure that there must be an _specific_ term that applies to the cross-cut I'm presenting. SWord making is (one of ) the oldest proffession (s)!

: )

So far, the only one that I believe fulfills the requirement is "foliate" (leaf-like), but I haven't seen it being used. I'm looking for a term that is unique to this shape, better suited and historically based. I haven't seen other blades with this crosscut, although some old pictures from Kissak at the Stockholm Military Museum seem to be of a similar blade.

Best regards.

M

fernando · 12th December 2010, 02:38 PM

Funny; i find 'foliate' ugly ... and clumsy

.
You're right, there must be something more technical ... and well put.

celtan · 12th December 2010, 06:09 PM

C'mon Nando,

You're just envious that I coined that term before you did...

Its waxing poetic'. Simple, concise , beautifully apropos, a delight to utter. Heck, it's even eco-friendly!

Just think of the alternative "lamina de tres quinas e mesas concavas"...

Egad!

Take care

Manolo

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Funny; i find 'foliate' ugly ... and clumsy

.
You're right, there must be something more technical ... and well put.

fearn · 12th December 2010, 08:54 PM

You know, I was just looking up the terms for leaves, to see if there was something mellifluous that might work here. For leaves, the term is "keeled" as if the leaf blade were keeled like a boat.

You could call it a keeled triangular blade. That's slightly better than single fullered triangular, which was my other idea. I still like epee blade, though.

Best,

F

celtan · 12th December 2010, 10:51 PM

You're keeling me here!

( Actually, a rather good suggestion. )

Best

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

You know, I was just looking up the terms for leaves, to see if there was something mellifluous that might work here. For leaves, the term is "keeled" as if the leaf blade were keeled like a boat.

You could call it a keeled triangular blade. That's slightly better than single fullered triangular, which was my other idea. I still like epee blade, though.

Best,

F

Hotspur · 13th December 2010, 12:07 PM

Regarding the term "hollow" that Jim mentions, I had come across a reference to that while doing some research of something else. The following, a post over tp myArmoury but I may have mentioned my finds elsewhere.

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=5468

While doing yet more work with German cutlers moving to England, what Howy (Albion swords) mentions makes a good bit of sense and maybe the term some may be looking for in better (universally?) describing the cross-section can be found in looking at German/Prussian cutlery terminology.

The text of those findings pasted here

From 1704

Sword-blade Company, Bill.
The Earl of Stamford reported from the Lords Committees, the Bill, intituled, "An Act to discharge the Governor and Company for making hollow Sword Blades in England, of the Sum of Eighteen Thousand Eight Hundred Sixty-four Pounds Seven Shillings, One Penny Half-penny, by Mistake overcharged in the Purchase-money for several forfeited and other Estates and Interests in Ireland, purchased by them," as fit to pass, without any Amendment.

Then in 1708

An Act for limiting a Time for Persons to come in and make their Claims to any of the forfeited Estates, and other Interests in Ireland, sold by the Trustees for Sale of those Estates to the Governor and Company for making hollow Sword-blades in England, and divers other Purchasers.

There is quite a lot of information out there in simple searches for the Hollow Sword Blades Company but I had first encountered it in searches at the
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/ A worthwhile venue to register for, as you can cookie/shelf articles you arew reading/searching/researching.

This quickly if of interest and the town being set up in control by the company. No doubt some of the legal issues that followed were sprung from that.
http://www.northantrim.com/aboutcushendall.htm

Cheers

GC

P.S.

The original search string query there might still work.
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/res...w+sword+blades

nope but there's lot on that site and now generally on the net at large

Jim McDougall · 13th December 2010, 05:44 PM

Thanks very much for the backup Glen on the 'hollow' term, which seems to be somewhat esoteric as to its history and application. Your access to these kinds of resources is as always extremely impressive!!!

I understand what Manuel is going for here, a bit more descriptive term for what seems to be a rather unusual geometric shape in cross section, and eludes the standard terms such as 'triangular' or three edged 'trefoil' .
The hollow term seems defeated in degree as an accurate term as it is more applicable toward the noted German process for fullering to lighten and strengthen blades, and may refer to various cross sections.

The term 'foliate' seems better applied to decorative style than to geometric shape, and Im not sure 'keeled' will work either as it is a structural term which brings to mind instantly the boat cross section in which the arcs are convex rather than concave. Excellent word there Fearn!!

Mellifluous!! and well placed suggestion.......Manolo, your sense of humor is as always, priceless! on the keeling term.

While we may still be at 'square' one trying to find a better geometrically based term for the section on these blades, I really admire the excellent interaction here in working toward ideas.

All the best,
Jim

12th December 2010, 02:00 PM	#1
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hi Guys, Once again, trefoil literally means "three edges" ( tres filos) , and applies to _any_ triangular crosscut blade. I know, I feel, I'm sure that there must be an _specific_ term that applies to the cross-cut I'm presenting. SWord making is (one of ) the oldest proffession (s)! : ) So far, the only one that I believe fulfills the requirement is "foliate" (leaf-like), but I haven't seen it being used. I'm looking for a term that is unique to this shape, better suited and historically based. I haven't seen other blades with this crosscut, although some old pictures from Kissak at the Stockholm Military Museum seem to be of a similar blade. Best regards. M

12th December 2010, 02:38 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Funny; i find 'foliate' ugly ... and clumsy . You're right, there must be something more technical ... and well put.

12th December 2010, 08:54 PM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	You know, I was just looking up the terms for leaves, to see if there was something mellifluous that might work here. For leaves, the term is "keeled" as if the leaf blade were keeled like a boat. You could call it a keeled triangular blade. That's slightly better than single fullered triangular, which was my other idea. I still like epee blade, though. Best, F

13th December 2010, 12:07 PM	#6
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 511	Regarding the term "hollow" that Jim mentions, I had come across a reference to that while doing some research of something else. The following, a post over tp myArmoury but I may have mentioned my finds elsewhere. http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=5468 While doing yet more work with German cutlers moving to England, what Howy (Albion swords) mentions makes a good bit of sense and maybe the term some may be looking for in better (universally?) describing the cross-section can be found in looking at German/Prussian cutlery terminology. The text of those findings pasted here From 1704 Sword-blade Company, Bill. The Earl of Stamford reported from the Lords Committees, the Bill, intituled, "An Act to discharge the Governor and Company for making hollow Sword Blades in England, of the Sum of Eighteen Thousand Eight Hundred Sixty-four Pounds Seven Shillings, One Penny Half-penny, by Mistake overcharged in the Purchase-money for several forfeited and other Estates and Interests in Ireland, purchased by them," as fit to pass, without any Amendment. Then in 1708 An Act for limiting a Time for Persons to come in and make their Claims to any of the forfeited Estates, and other Interests in Ireland, sold by the Trustees for Sale of those Estates to the Governor and Company for making hollow Sword-blades in England, and divers other Purchasers. There is quite a lot of information out there in simple searches for the Hollow Sword Blades Company but I had first encountered it in searches at the http://www.british-history.ac.uk/ A worthwhile venue to register for, as you can cookie/shelf articles you arew reading/searching/researching. This quickly if of interest and the town being set up in control by the company. No doubt some of the legal issues that followed were sprung from that. http://www.northantrim.com/aboutcushendall.htm Cheers GC P.S. The original search string query there might still work. http://www.british-history.ac.uk/res...w+sword+blades nope but there's lot on that site and now generally on the net at large

13th December 2010, 05:44 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	Thanks very much for the backup Glen on the 'hollow' term, which seems to be somewhat esoteric as to its history and application. Your access to these kinds of resources is as always extremely impressive!!! I understand what Manuel is going for here, a bit more descriptive term for what seems to be a rather unusual geometric shape in cross section, and eludes the standard terms such as 'triangular' or three edged 'trefoil' . The hollow term seems defeated in degree as an accurate term as it is more applicable toward the noted German process for fullering to lighten and strengthen blades, and may refer to various cross sections. The term 'foliate' seems better applied to decorative style than to geometric shape, and Im not sure 'keeled' will work either as it is a structural term which brings to mind instantly the boat cross section in which the arcs are convex rather than concave. Excellent word there Fearn!! Mellifluous!! and well placed suggestion.......Manolo, your sense of humor is as always, priceless! on the keeling term. While we may still be at 'square' one trying to find a better geometrically based term for the section on these blades, I really admire the excellent interaction here in working toward ideas. All the best, Jim