New sword, Bosnia?

Battara · 12th December 2010, 06:21 AM

Been a while - welcome back!

The hilt does not strike me as particularly Bosnian but more Afghanistan or there abouts...........

Nagawarrior · 12th December 2010, 10:22 AM

Nice to be able to submit a new piece for discussion Jose. Thanks for the welcome back.
This item was labled Russian in the little shop I found it at. I kinda had a Ottoman gut feeling from it. The little cirlces on the handle reminded me of the handles of Bosnian Bichaq. The lobed pommel also reminds of pieces from the Balkan area. The seller might have seen a similarity to the Russian Shashqa. I've seen the circles on Afgan pieces as well.
At 26" over all with 19" blade, its much larger than the typical Bichaq though. Look forward to futher comment.

ariel · 12th December 2010, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Been a while - welcome back!

The hilt does not strike me as particularly Bosnian but more Afghanistan or there abouts...........

Jose,
I think I know where the feeling comes from: the integral bolster. These were widespread on Bulgarian ( and, likely, nearby) examples.
Russian masters in Zlatoust made gorgeous yataghans, but, like many things Russians, those were grossly overdone and very decorative.
Recently, I got involved in the discussion of Crimean Tatar weapons: those were very similar to the Balkan Bulgarian karakulaks.
Would be very interesting to look at the close-ups: decorations might be revealing. I seem to be able to see some kind of circle with rays near the ricasso: Tatar tamga?
If that's the case, since the Crimea became a part of the Russian Empire, the "Russian" attribution might be somewhat correct.

Atlantia · 12th December 2010, 05:22 PM

It does look Balkan to me. Can we see the decoration on the scabbard and the stitching on the leather part close-up?

Nagawarrior · 12th December 2010, 06:49 PM

Here are some more pictures. I hope they help. Thank you for your input. Very much appreciated.

Atlantia · 12th December 2010, 06:56 PM

That curly wire connector where the leather is joined is a style I see on Greek/Balkan/Turkish pieces.
As Battara says, the circles are familiar from Afghan items, but now that we can see the other details, I'd say its more to the west.
It doesn't look Greek to me, possibly Turkish, but Balkan seems favourite (IMHO).
The decoration on the scabbard with the chevron and orb is very distinctive. Must be a giveaway clue for someone to ID it?

TVV · 12th December 2010, 10:30 PM

The dot in circle decoration from what I have read is supposed to signify heaven, with the little dot in the center symbolizing Allah's central position in the universe. As a result, it is not surprisingly very wide spread and typical of many areas, making attribution based solely on this symbol hard.

I am attaching a picture of some Bosnian knives, where you can clearly see similar decoration on the hilt of the second knife from the left. My guess therefore would be Western Balkans.

Regards,
Teodor

Battara · 13th December 2010, 08:05 PM

That is very helpful TVV. Did not know that about the dot and circle. I have seen these on Balkan arms as well, but not lumped together in this type of configuration except on Afgani/north central Asian pieces.

What you said does make sense of the use of some form of dot and circle motif all over the Islamic world.

12th December 2010, 06:49 PM	#5
Nagawarrior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Inland Empire, Southern California USA Posts: 160	Here are some more pictures. I hope they help. Thank you for your input. Very much appreciated. Attached Images

12th December 2010, 06:56 PM	#6
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	That curly wire connector where the leather is joined is a style I see on Greek/Balkan/Turkish pieces. As Battara says, the circles are familiar from Afghan items, but now that we can see the other details, I'd say its more to the west. It doesn't look Greek to me, possibly Turkish, but Balkan seems favourite (IMHO). The decoration on the scabbard with the chevron and orb is very distinctive. Must be a giveaway clue for someone to ID it? Last edited by Atlantia; 12th December 2010 at 07:13 PM.

12th December 2010, 10:30 PM	#7
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,725	The dot in circle decoration from what I have read is supposed to signify heaven, with the little dot in the center symbolizing Allah's central position in the universe. As a result, it is not surprisingly very wide spread and typical of many areas, making attribution based solely on this symbol hard. I am attaching a picture of some Bosnian knives, where you can clearly see similar decoration on the hilt of the second knife from the left. My guess therefore would be Western Balkans. Regards, Teodor Attached Images

12th December 2010, 06:21 AM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,345	Been a while - welcome back! The hilt does not strike me as particularly Bosnian but more Afghanistan or there abouts...........

12th December 2010, 10:22 AM	#2
Nagawarrior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Inland Empire, Southern California USA Posts: 160	Nice to be able to submit a new piece for discussion Jose. Thanks for the welcome back. This item was labled Russian in the little shop I found it at. I kinda had a Ottoman gut feeling from it. The little cirlces on the handle reminded me of the handles of Bosnian Bichaq. The lobed pommel also reminds of pieces from the Balkan area. The seller might have seen a similarity to the Russian Shashqa. I've seen the circles on Afgan pieces as well. At 26" over all with 19" blade, its much larger than the typical Bichaq though. Look forward to futher comment.

12th December 2010, 05:22 PM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	It does look Balkan to me. Can we see the decoration on the scabbard and the stitching on the leather part close-up?

13th December 2010, 08:05 PM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,345	That is very helpful TVV. Did not know that about the dot and circle. I have seen these on Balkan arms as well, but not lumped together in this type of configuration except on Afgani/north central Asian pieces. What you said does make sense of the use of some form of dot and circle motif all over the Islamic world.