Blade cross cut shape description

Jim McDougall · 11th December 2010, 02:40 AM

In the 18th century these smallsword type blades were called 'hollow blades'.
(Aylward, 1945, p. 38)

celtan · 11th December 2010, 03:11 AM

Hi Guys,

Jim, I mean no disrespect, just trying to learn. But, weren't "hollow" blades _any_ blade with concave faces/mesas such as a triangular cross-cut (cc) estoc blade..?

Many swedish palasch blades were of hollow diamond cc.

Best

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In the 18th century these smallsword type blades were called 'hollow blades'.
(Aylward, 1945, p. 38)

Jim McDougall · 11th December 2010, 05:04 AM

Thanks for answering Manolo. I'm with you, trying to learn, which is why I was going through the references at hand to see if I could answer your question.

Aylward ("The Smallsword in England", 1945, p.38) notes in a paragraph on 'triple edge blades'.....
"...it is customary to refer to the typical blades of the 18th century as 'triangular', but the term is not quite as accurate as might be wished. In section, the broader side of these blades shows a slightly curved base line from the center of which rises a median spine joined to the extremities of the base line by arcs; in consequence we have a blade which is, in fact, a triple edged one, and the design has come so near to perfection as far as a purely thrusting weapon is concerned that even army bayonets were made in this manner up to a comparitively recent period."

On the next page he notes that these triple edged blades were called 'hollow' blades by those who made them.

On p.36, Aylward notes that an earlier blade, though not intended for smallswords may be the initial development for the 'hollow' blade, forged with a central spine on either side, the four flutes then producing a section resembling a cross with hollowed arms and four edges.

It seems the 'hollow' term may have been misapplied as well as misunderstood with the 17th century sword factories at Hounslow, later Shotley Bridge with the mysterious "Hollow Sword Blade Company" venture , which seems to have been more 'business' than actual production. Later the Shotley Bridge factory claimed to specialize in these 'hollow blades', but no smallswords can definitely be attributed to them as far as is known (p.33).

What I think often adds to confusion is that military blades of latter 18th century onward typically used the hollow ground style where the faces of the blade were ground to form fullers to lighten and strengthen blade.

It would seem the 'hollow' term far exceeded the smallsword blades, and became entirely misperceived in the early days, I believe some perceptions even included the idea that blades were actually hollow with notions of them being filled with mercury and other strange notions.

The actual three equally positioned edges which in cross looks like a three point star is compared to the trialamellum by Burton (p.135), but is of course not comparable to this section.

Im not sure what geometric term would be applicable to these blades of this type section, but wanted to note what they seem to have been called at the time, at least colloquially and probably connected in some degree to these other cases.

I must admit I'm trying to understand these extracts from Aylward as well, so please forgive the drawn out text (for me what else is new

. Perhaps they might give us better perspective at least, but the fact remains the term 'hollow' may not have been used at all for these military version blades.
I think mostly I was working toward understanding the earlier smallsword blades, and possible associations to this one.

All the best,
Jim

Gavin Nugent · 11th December 2010, 07:01 AM

My understanding is they are referred to as Trefoil blades which was the attribution to the three point cross section and the profile was call triangular blades due to their shape.

Gav

Jim McDougall · 11th December 2010, 06:10 PM

Excellent input Gav! I had forgotten the 'trefoil' term, which does seem applicable if we must adopt a term for these blades. The 'hollow' term seems more a descriptive term to the concave section of the blade face in varying applications in cross section.

All the best,
Jim

celtan · 12th December 2010, 02:00 PM

Hi Guys,

Once again, trefoil literally means "three edges" ( tres filos) , and applies to _any_ triangular crosscut blade. I know, I feel, I'm sure that there must be an _specific_ term that applies to the cross-cut I'm presenting. SWord making is (one of ) the oldest proffession (s)!

: )

So far, the only one that I believe fulfills the requirement is "foliate" (leaf-like), but I haven't seen it being used. I'm looking for a term that is unique to this shape, better suited and historically based. I haven't seen other blades with this crosscut, although some old pictures from Kissak at the Stockholm Military Museum seem to be of a similar blade.

Best regards.

M

fernando · 12th December 2010, 02:38 PM

Funny; i find 'foliate' ugly ... and clumsy

.
You're right, there must be something more technical ... and well put.

11th December 2010, 07:01 AM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	My understanding My understanding is they are referred to as Trefoil blades which was the attribution to the three point cross section and the profile was call triangular blades due to their shape. Gav Last edited by freebooter; 11th December 2010 at 08:09 AM.

11th December 2010, 02:40 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	In the 18th century these smallsword type blades were called 'hollow blades'. (Aylward, 1945, p. 38)

11th December 2010, 05:04 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	Thanks for answering Manolo. I'm with you, trying to learn, which is why I was going through the references at hand to see if I could answer your question. Aylward ("The Smallsword in England", 1945, p.38) notes in a paragraph on 'triple edge blades'..... "...it is customary to refer to the typical blades of the 18th century as 'triangular', but the term is not quite as accurate as might be wished. In section, the broader side of these blades shows a slightly curved base line from the center of which rises a median spine joined to the extremities of the base line by arcs; in consequence we have a blade which is, in fact, a triple edged one, and the design has come so near to perfection as far as a purely thrusting weapon is concerned that even army bayonets were made in this manner up to a comparitively recent period." On the next page he notes that these triple edged blades were called 'hollow' blades by those who made them. On p.36, Aylward notes that an earlier blade, though not intended for smallswords may be the initial development for the 'hollow' blade, forged with a central spine on either side, the four flutes then producing a section resembling a cross with hollowed arms and four edges. It seems the 'hollow' term may have been misapplied as well as misunderstood with the 17th century sword factories at Hounslow, later Shotley Bridge with the mysterious "Hollow Sword Blade Company" venture , which seems to have been more 'business' than actual production. Later the Shotley Bridge factory claimed to specialize in these 'hollow blades', but no smallswords can definitely be attributed to them as far as is known (p.33). What I think often adds to confusion is that military blades of latter 18th century onward typically used the hollow ground style where the faces of the blade were ground to form fullers to lighten and strengthen blade. It would seem the 'hollow' term far exceeded the smallsword blades, and became entirely misperceived in the early days, I believe some perceptions even included the idea that blades were actually hollow with notions of them being filled with mercury and other strange notions. The actual three equally positioned edges which in cross looks like a three point star is compared to the trialamellum by Burton (p.135), but is of course not comparable to this section. Im not sure what geometric term would be applicable to these blades of this type section, but wanted to note what they seem to have been called at the time, at least colloquially and probably connected in some degree to these other cases. I must admit I'm trying to understand these extracts from Aylward as well, so please forgive the drawn out text (for me what else is new . Perhaps they might give us better perspective at least, but the fact remains the term 'hollow' may not have been used at all for these military version blades. I think mostly I was working toward understanding the earlier smallsword blades, and possible associations to this one. All the best, Jim

11th December 2010, 06:10 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	Excellent input Gav! I had forgotten the 'trefoil' term, which does seem applicable if we must adopt a term for these blades. The 'hollow' term seems more a descriptive term to the concave section of the blade face in varying applications in cross section. All the best, Jim

12th December 2010, 02:00 PM	#6
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hi Guys, Once again, trefoil literally means "three edges" ( tres filos) , and applies to _any_ triangular crosscut blade. I know, I feel, I'm sure that there must be an _specific_ term that applies to the cross-cut I'm presenting. SWord making is (one of ) the oldest proffession (s)! : ) So far, the only one that I believe fulfills the requirement is "foliate" (leaf-like), but I haven't seen it being used. I'm looking for a term that is unique to this shape, better suited and historically based. I haven't seen other blades with this crosscut, although some old pictures from Kissak at the Stockholm Military Museum seem to be of a similar blade. Best regards. M

12th December 2010, 02:38 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Funny; i find 'foliate' ugly ... and clumsy . You're right, there must be something more technical ... and well put.