Blade cross cut shape description

[celtan]

You are surely jesting, my good sir.

Oh, you indeed were?

Well Senhor, what can you expect from small croppings of crappy large old pictures?

: P

Nah, the problem wit the denomination you suggest is that it is not distinctive enough, since it may well be applied also to estoc pyramidal crosscut blades ( like most socket bayonets).

The "Three corners and concave tables" is much better, yet too lengthy to be practical. Yet both it and the French "blade with two hollow sides" do not address the counterpart face with the valley/central depression. (Not really a groove).

This type of blade is very attractive, delicate, even elegant. Circa early to Mid17th C. It doths remind me of a leaf and it's stem. Seems to be a link between former broad blades and colichemarde pyramidal hollow blades.

Surely, there must be many more around with this typology.

What do you say, mes sieurs?

Bestest Regards

Manolo

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Manolete,

Your pictures are getting finer

I think i see these being called "thee sided" or "triangular section" blades in a determined reknown British catalogue, but i can't check whether their backs are flat or concave .

But i'd say we call it here "lamina de tres quinas e mesas concavas".
... Pick up your notions of galego

I guess in French would be called "lame à deux pans creux".

[celtan]

Better photos recently taken. Note that the reverse face is actually a valley made by the two mesas/tables/sides of the anverse. Not the typical third face of a pyramidal blade. The effect is very elegant, almost dainty, yet the 3 cm wide blade (at ricasso) is very robust.

[fernando]

I would say i have already seen this type of cross section, in a much smaller scale; in fact the short blade of a sword cane i had.
If we were talking graphics, this would be a circumflex accent cross section
Go figure what would they call this profile sword wise .

[Jim McDougall]

In the 18th century these smallsword type blades were called 'hollow blades'.
(Aylward, 1945, p. 38)

[celtan]

Hi Guys,

Jim, I mean no disrespect, just trying to learn. But, weren't "hollow" blades _any_ blade with concave faces/mesas such as a triangular cross-cut (cc) estoc blade..?

Many swedish palasch blades were of hollow diamond cc.

Best

M

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In the 18th century these smallsword type blades were called 'hollow blades'.
(Aylward, 1945, p. 38)

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks for answering Manolo. I'm with you, trying to learn, which is why I was going through the references at hand to see if I could answer your question.

Aylward ("The Smallsword in England", 1945, p.38) notes in a paragraph on 'triple edge blades'.....
"...it is customary to refer to the typical blades of the 18th century as 'triangular', but the term is not quite as accurate as might be wished. In section, the broader side of these blades shows a slightly curved base line from the center of which rises a median spine joined to the extremities of the base line by arcs; in consequence we have a blade which is, in fact, a triple edged one, and the design has come so near to perfection as far as a purely thrusting weapon is concerned that even army bayonets were made in this manner up to a comparitively recent period."

On the next page he notes that these triple edged blades were called 'hollow' blades by those who made them.

On p.36, Aylward notes that an earlier blade, though not intended for smallswords may be the initial development for the 'hollow' blade, forged with a central spine on either side, the four flutes then producing a section resembling a cross with hollowed arms and four edges.

It seems the 'hollow' term may have been misapplied as well as misunderstood with the 17th century sword factories at Hounslow, later Shotley Bridge with the mysterious "Hollow Sword Blade Company" venture , which seems to have been more 'business' than actual production. Later the Shotley Bridge factory claimed to specialize in these 'hollow blades', but no smallswords can definitely be attributed to them as far as is known (p.33).

What I think often adds to confusion is that military blades of latter 18th century onward typically used the hollow ground style where the faces of the blade were ground to form fullers to lighten and strengthen blade.

It would seem the 'hollow' term far exceeded the smallsword blades, and became entirely misperceived in the early days, I believe some perceptions even included the idea that blades were actually hollow with notions of them being filled with mercury and other strange notions.

The actual three equally positioned edges which in cross looks like a three point star is compared to the trialamellum by Burton (p.135), but is of course not comparable to this section.

Im not sure what geometric term would be applicable to these blades of this type section, but wanted to note what they seem to have been called at the time, at least colloquially and probably connected in some degree to these other cases.

I must admit I'm trying to understand these extracts from Aylward as well, so please forgive the drawn out text (for me what else is new . Perhaps they might give us better perspective at least, but the fact remains the term 'hollow' may not have been used at all for these military version blades.
I think mostly I was working toward understanding the earlier smallsword blades, and possible associations to this one.

All the best,
Jim

[Gavin Nugent]

My understanding is they are referred to as Trefoil blades which was the attribution to the three point cross section and the profile was call triangular blades due to their shape.

Gav