Fossil Molar Talisman Research Needed

A. G. Maisey · 5th December 2010, 09:24 PM

Yes, there is a lot of material coming into Bali from other countries, most especially from Canada.

The mammoth ivory from there has been used by custom knife makers for many years before it was exported into Bali. It is horribly unstable stuff, and the custom knife industry uses some sort of resin infusion process that turns it into good usable material. As both the ivory and the molars are used raw in Bali it is beautiful in the gallery, will pass customs, and two years down the track in a display cabinet will very probably develop heavy cracking. I say "very probably" because I cannot guarantee it will happen with every piece, but it has happened with every piece that I have.

As to the Indonesian raw material, I have handled pieces that came from the Sangiran fossil beds, and I have seen pieces sold that came from Sumatera. I have seen a lot of newly carved hilts that have come from Sumatra. They are horribly expensive. My guess is that they are carved with rotary drills like old time dentists used. This type of technology was used in Surabaya 30 years ago, notably by one of the all-time big-deal purveyors of keris who sold principally into the Jakarta market and in Europe.

I've also seen a lot of hilts and wrongkos that were produced by Jogja craftsmen, but I have not seen any keris fittings from this material produced by Solo craftsmen.

Probably the first recent productions using geraham I saw in about 1988. In the 20 years prior to that I did not see any geraham hilts or wrongkos for sale in Central Jawa.

Prior to the time when geraham began to appear in the Central Jawa markets I had seen one Balinese wrongko that I believed to be genuinely old, and perhaps three or four hilts:- one in an old Australian collection, one in the Musium Radyo Pustoko in Solo, and I've added the other one or two for any I might have forgotten. That during the period from about 1954 to about 1988.

I know of no rule of thumb that can be used to differentiate between fossil molar and new molar. I saw a couple of new molars that had come from an elephant that had died about 6 months previous in Solo and been buried , I think, at Jurug. To me it looked exactly the same as the fossilised stuff. Once the material has been turned into a finished article I would not have the faintest idea how to differentiate, but I'm sure the carvers could, simply by the way in which it works.

It is important to note that in Central Jawa and especially in Solo, if you ask where fossils offered for sale come from, they will almost invariably come from somewhere outside Jawa. This is because the authorities have cracked down hard to even the micro level on the sale of fossils illegally taken from the Sangiran fossil beds. If you believe everything you're told, nothing comes from Sangiran any longer.

I do not know how, when, where nor why geraham, either fresh or fossil was first used as a material for keris. Based on the couple of genuinely old pieces I've seen, my guess is pre-WWII, and not in Jawa.

I have never heard any mention of talismanic properties associated with geraham, except that it is favoured by Dewi Duit, and because of this favour, is very good for trade.

In respect of talismanic qualities.

In my experience, if you ask for a talismanic quality for something, you will be provided with one.

In Indonesia, and most especially in Jawa, if you are a paying customer, or somebody with some level of authority, particularly if you're a bule or somebody else from outside, and you ask a question that seeks after knowledge, you'll nearly always get an answer. Whether that answer is correct or not is another question.

cedric Le Dauphin · 6th December 2010, 10:10 PM

Dear Alan,
Thanks for all these info.
Any info on sites of archeological sites of elephant remains or mammouth remains within our realm?

A. G. Maisey · 7th December 2010, 04:57 AM

I'm sorry Cedric, but what do you mean by "within our realm" ?

I do not understand your question, but if I did, I probably would not be able to supply an answer, I have no knowledge of this sort of thing at all.

VANDOO · 7th December 2010, 06:59 AM

THE FOSSIL TEETH I SAW BEING USED IN BALI AND ELSEWHERE WERE SAID TO HAVE COME FROM JAVA. IT WAS MORE STABLE THAN TEETH I HAVE SEEN COMMING FROM MANY OTHER LOCATIONS. THE ONE FROM JAVA WAS THE TOOTH OF A STEGODON A TYPE OF MASTODON. MAMMOTH, MASTODON AND EXTINCT ELEPHANT FOSSILS ARE WIDESPREAD I EVEN FIND THEM HERE WHERE I LIVE. THE TUSKS AND TEETH HERE ARE BRITTLE AND NOT SUITABLE FOR MUCH. THE ENAMEL ON THE TEETH COULD BE USED FOR TAILSMAN OR JEWLRY BUT NOT FOR A KERIS HANDLE.
PICTURE OF PARTIAL SKULL OF STEGODON TRIGONOCEPHALUS
AND 3 PICTURES OF A SINGLE STEGODON TOOTH FROM JAVA MEASURES 10.5 X 5.5 X 3 INCHES. ITS THE KIND I SAW BEING CARVED IN BALI.

Jean · 7th December 2010, 09:45 AM

I attach pictures of fossil teeth which I got in Sangiran (near Solo) some 15 years ago, they are too small for making a hilt and may not come from a mammoth at all. I think that this site was extensively excavated and is highly controlled so I doubt that fossil teeth are still available from this location and used for making artefacts, but it was probably the case in the past.
I attach a picture of a Jogja kris in my collection with the hilt & waranga made from elephant molar (from Sumatra?), I bought it 5 years ago and the materials is still strong, as I said I think that it may not be that old so the organic binder in the tooth is still present and avoids it to be too brittle.
Best regards
Jean

A. G. Maisey · 7th December 2010, 10:43 AM

There is still a lot of material coming out of Sangiran, Jean. Possibly not from the regulated areas, but every time there is heavy rain fossils are uncovered, and when the creeks and rivers running through the area rise, they uncover fossils in the creek banks, which the local people harvest as soon as the water level drops. Its all highly illegal of course, but like most things illegal, its only illegal if you get caught.You've only got to walk around the local markets to see evidence of what is found.

Battara · 7th December 2010, 10:52 PM

So what I am hearing is the use of fossil molar ivory is a recent phenomenon in Indonesia, right?

7th December 2010, 06:59 AM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE FOSSIL TEETH I SAW BEING USED IN BALI AND ELSEWHERE WERE SAID TO HAVE COME FROM JAVA. IT WAS MORE STABLE THAN TEETH I HAVE SEEN COMMING FROM MANY OTHER LOCATIONS. THE ONE FROM JAVA WAS THE TOOTH OF A STEGODON A TYPE OF MASTODON. MAMMOTH, MASTODON AND EXTINCT ELEPHANT FOSSILS ARE WIDESPREAD I EVEN FIND THEM HERE WHERE I LIVE. THE TUSKS AND TEETH HERE ARE BRITTLE AND NOT SUITABLE FOR MUCH. THE ENAMEL ON THE TEETH COULD BE USED FOR TAILSMAN OR JEWLRY BUT NOT FOR A KERIS HANDLE. PICTURE OF PARTIAL SKULL OF STEGODON TRIGONOCEPHALUS AND 3 PICTURES OF A SINGLE STEGODON TOOTH FROM JAVA MEASURES 10.5 X 5.5 X 3 INCHES. ITS THE KIND I SAW BEING CARVED IN BALI. Attached Images

7th December 2010, 09:45 AM	#5
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	I attach pictures of fossil teeth which I got in Sangiran (near Solo) some 15 years ago, they are too small for making a hilt and may not come from a mammoth at all. I think that this site was extensively excavated and is highly controlled so I doubt that fossil teeth are still available from this location and used for making artefacts, but it was probably the case in the past. I attach a picture of a Jogja kris in my collection with the hilt & waranga made from elephant molar (from Sumatra?), I bought it 5 years ago and the materials is still strong, as I said I think that it may not be that old so the organic binder in the tooth is still present and avoids it to be too brittle. Best regards Jean Attached Images

5th December 2010, 09:24 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Yes, there is a lot of material coming into Bali from other countries, most especially from Canada. The mammoth ivory from there has been used by custom knife makers for many years before it was exported into Bali. It is horribly unstable stuff, and the custom knife industry uses some sort of resin infusion process that turns it into good usable material. As both the ivory and the molars are used raw in Bali it is beautiful in the gallery, will pass customs, and two years down the track in a display cabinet will very probably develop heavy cracking. I say "very probably" because I cannot guarantee it will happen with every piece, but it has happened with every piece that I have. As to the Indonesian raw material, I have handled pieces that came from the Sangiran fossil beds, and I have seen pieces sold that came from Sumatera. I have seen a lot of newly carved hilts that have come from Sumatra. They are horribly expensive. My guess is that they are carved with rotary drills like old time dentists used. This type of technology was used in Surabaya 30 years ago, notably by one of the all-time big-deal purveyors of keris who sold principally into the Jakarta market and in Europe. I've also seen a lot of hilts and wrongkos that were produced by Jogja craftsmen, but I have not seen any keris fittings from this material produced by Solo craftsmen. Probably the first recent productions using geraham I saw in about 1988. In the 20 years prior to that I did not see any geraham hilts or wrongkos for sale in Central Jawa. Prior to the time when geraham began to appear in the Central Jawa markets I had seen one Balinese wrongko that I believed to be genuinely old, and perhaps three or four hilts:- one in an old Australian collection, one in the Musium Radyo Pustoko in Solo, and I've added the other one or two for any I might have forgotten. That during the period from about 1954 to about 1988. I know of no rule of thumb that can be used to differentiate between fossil molar and new molar. I saw a couple of new molars that had come from an elephant that had died about 6 months previous in Solo and been buried , I think, at Jurug. To me it looked exactly the same as the fossilised stuff. Once the material has been turned into a finished article I would not have the faintest idea how to differentiate, but I'm sure the carvers could, simply by the way in which it works. It is important to note that in Central Jawa and especially in Solo, if you ask where fossils offered for sale come from, they will almost invariably come from somewhere outside Jawa. This is because the authorities have cracked down hard to even the micro level on the sale of fossils illegally taken from the Sangiran fossil beds. If you believe everything you're told, nothing comes from Sangiran any longer. I do not know how, when, where nor why geraham, either fresh or fossil was first used as a material for keris. Based on the couple of genuinely old pieces I've seen, my guess is pre-WWII, and not in Jawa. I have never heard any mention of talismanic properties associated with geraham, except that it is favoured by Dewi Duit, and because of this favour, is very good for trade. In respect of talismanic qualities. In my experience, if you ask for a talismanic quality for something, you will be provided with one. In Indonesia, and most especially in Jawa, if you are a paying customer, or somebody with some level of authority, particularly if you're a bule or somebody else from outside, and you ask a question that seeks after knowledge, you'll nearly always get an answer. Whether that answer is correct or not is another question.

6th December 2010, 10:10 PM	#2
cedric Le Dauphin Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Paris Posts: 39	Dear Alan, Thanks for all these info. Any info on sites of archeological sites of elephant remains or mammouth remains within our realm?

7th December 2010, 04:57 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	I'm sorry Cedric, but what do you mean by "within our realm" ? I do not understand your question, but if I did, I probably would not be able to supply an answer, I have no knowledge of this sort of thing at all.

7th December 2010, 10:43 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	There is still a lot of material coming out of Sangiran, Jean. Possibly not from the regulated areas, but every time there is heavy rain fossils are uncovered, and when the creeks and rivers running through the area rise, they uncover fossils in the creek banks, which the local people harvest as soon as the water level drops. Its all highly illegal of course, but like most things illegal, its only illegal if you get caught.You've only got to walk around the local markets to see evidence of what is found.

7th December 2010, 10:52 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	So what I am hearing is the use of fossil molar ivory is a recent phenomenon in Indonesia, right?