T.ulwar and EIC

[Pukka Bundook]

Hi again Jim,

Do I take it that you think the marks we have been viewing are really EIG marks?

I would have to say that they look definitely to be E I C marks.
In your previous post, (next to last) you made mention of the EIG, and damaged stamps;
I have been wondering, Do you think that the marks in the above photos are All damaged EI "G" stamps? (with damaged G and damaged broad arrow?)

I note in your reply, that you seem a bit reticent, as though you don't want to call me wrong or something!......Please don't worry about things like that! If I'm wrong on this, then I'm wrong and that's an end to it.

I do find this subject interesting, and strange, in that it doesn't appear to have been addressed before. ...and the only way to get to the bottom of it is to keep digging.
To me, the marks apper quite plainly to be E I C triangle.

Going back to the possible spurious markings and monetary gain;
If this Was the intention, it doesn't seem to work! The tulwar with the first mark I showed sold for I believe, $62 dollars recently, and the one I have cost me $45.00 a few years ago.

Very best wishes,

Richard.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Jim Wrote: I finally found the information in these notes, after the Mutiny it is known that the British government took over in India. In 1862 I believe, when the transition was in place, Queen Victoria was declared Empress of India, and cyphers on blades and other materials were with the ligature VRI.
Information on much of this is found in material on the coins of India.
That may be right Jim,you would know far more about this that I do, but in some places Victoria was still Queen in 1886 AD.
The attached one silver Rupee is from Bundi and dated 1943 VS - 1886 AD.
Jens

[Pukka Bundook]

Hello Jens,

I have a few quarter Anna coins, and it seems on them, the cut-off date for Queen was 1876. On the 1877 coins, she has the title Empress.

(fopt what it's worth!)

Best,
R.

[Jim McDougall]

What I am saying is that these letters, which do seem to be E I C, are placed in the same configuration as used in the E I G stamps.

Regarding the spurious marks....it seems to me that what I said was to be wary of these markings, in my initial post as I had not yet found my notes and did not recall the EIG data.

I cannot find the place where I made any comment about spurious markings for 'monetary gain'. I did note that Indian armourers often placed spurious markings on thier blades to imply higher quality. This is of course well known in many ethnographic situations. My comments on 'commercial' markings was directed at independant large companies and organizations in India who often employed thier own security forces. This derived from my idea that the acronym EIC might have been one of those. Again before I found my notes.

I am not saying you are wrong about anything, but we are indeed both trying to communicate in examining possibilities, which I am failing miserably at

I have a hard time seeing these marks, but since they are so badly stamped, I thought they might be EIG, as they are in that configuration. What I said after that was that maybe, since the EIC was ending after 1858, and the EIG was taking over, possibly they were using EIC for a short time even though not using the rampant lion. ...suggesting this as transitional.

The triangle is confusing because it was, as far as I have known in these years of research, never seen a triangle used by EIC as a mark of any kind.
I would love to see data showing otherwise of course.

The EIC was of course private entity, not government, so the arrow would not have been used with EIC...but then there are no arrows seen in these photos, only triangles.

What I think is that if these are EIC and triangle, they must be transitional and used as marks before the government took over and made the mark EIG with broad arrow,

Jens, thank you for answering, and in explanation, I am unclear on which dates she officially was declared Empress of India, but I have always thought she became so while still remaining Queen of England. Much as the British Raj was thought of as a separate entity from the British homeland, and mostly there were separate markings etc. applied......the cyphers on weapons to Indian service had VRI. I dont know on the coins, which I only mentioned to suggest material on them would add more detailed data on dates.
I always thought the Empress title was sort of an addition to expand her official rule to India, and despite that, she was still considered Queen.
The Empress title would have broadened her rule to the 'Empire', but Queens did not technically rule empires.
In any case, thank you for the clarification.

Getting back to the markings, my apologies for not being able to more correctly word my comments. It is often amazing at how sometimes the most seemingly simple matters can become so complex.

Thanks for your patience guys,
All the best,
Jim

[Pukka Bundook]

I've gotcha' now Jim.

Sorry if I seemed to be implying you said something about "spurious marks" I meant nothing of the sort. It was me who suggested that marks Could have been added with idea of raising value.... Sort of a Walter Mitty mind I have, that wanders and can come up with things that on the surface appear unconnected.

I will attache a clearer mark I saw on-line,..........when I find it again!

Again, sorry for any misunderstanding.

Best,
Richard.

[Jim McDougall]

LOL! Yup, ya done got me OK! As they say here in TX.
According to my wife, I do say things uh, 'off center' a lot, so not surprised for any miscommunication.
The spurious marks thing is actually pretty much a tradition with trade blades and typically many native made blades....and for that matter throughout Europe. Look at the fabled maker Andrea Ferara, who had to have been immortal to have made thousands of blades for nearly 300 years! (no I am not saying there really was such a guy)

I recently read of a blade probably from India, with a hodgepodge of markings on the blade that consisted of runes, Berber, Ogham and Greek characters.
In the Khyber, they were stamping EIC markings on gun locks through the 19th and well into the 20th century.

It sounds like you and Gene have both encountered these 'EIC' or 'EIG' marked tulwars, so they must be out there in some number. Who knows, maybe during the changeover, some armoury smith who hadn't gotten the memo kept using his old EIC stamp. Its been known to happen

All the best,
Jim

[napoleon]

firstly love the rule,secondly are these stamps considered genuine?and do they only occur on tulwars?