Dagger ID required

Atlantia · 25th November 2010, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

South East Asia is not my main area of interest, but there are a few points to pick up on here :-

The inhabitants of Aceh, Northern Sumatra are Muslim, and going west across the Indian Ocean one arrives at North East Africa and Arabia. That type of handle with layers of horn sandwiched with metal is used on Somali knives, the crescent finial to the handle appears on some Sudan daggers. The blade to my knife is a bit like the form on Danakil knives. One Batak blade is in the form of an Arab jambiya. Is it reasonable to assume these are Batak weapons in an Islamic culture that have received influence from across the Indian Ocean ?

But the practice of covering the wooden sheath with sheet metal seems to be more common on Indonesian weapons.

Perhaps there are some Indonesian or Dutch forumites who can shed some light on this ?

Regards.

They are certainly somewhat mysterious. They even share some similarities with shibriya.

kai · 25th November 2010, 08:41 PM

Hello,

These examples from Indonesia are neither Batak nor Sunda (W Java), IHMO: The style just doesn't fit with any Malay/Sumatran/Sunda/whatever Indonesian culture. That they seem to pop up here and there throughout the archipelago seems to be best explained by the Haji, as mentioned by Ian in the other thread, or plain trade (only few Batak were Muslim).

There are local adaptations of Arab style daggers (Jambea, Beladau, Sadop, etc.) but these are different and usually sport local traditional decorations and craftmanship.

Regards,
Kai

Atlantia · 25th November 2010, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello,

These examples from Indonesia are neither Batak nor Sunda (W Java), IHMO: The style just doesn't fit with any Malay/Sumatran/Sunda/whatever Indonesian culture. That they seem to pop up here and there throughout the archipelago seems to be best explained by the Haj, as mentioned by Michael in the other thread, or plain trade (only few Batak were Muslim).

There are local adaptations of Arab style daggers (Jambea, Beladau, Sadop, etc.) but these are different and usually sport local traditional decorations and craftmanship.

Regards,
Kai

Hi Kai,

So where are these from? They are clearly a specific type, probobly from a specific place, but that location remains elusive.
They are quite delicate and relatively well made. Surely they are known to collectors?

kai · 25th November 2010, 09:03 PM

Not SE Asia, not India, not Persia, not sub-saharan Africa (IMHO).

The hilt and the zigzag decorations appear quite distinctive - maybe Artzi or some of the other long-time collectors of N/NE African and Near East pieces can comment?

Regards,
Kai

Atlantia · 25th November 2010, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Not SE Asia, not India, not Persia, not sub-saharan Africa (IMHO).

The hilt and the zigzag decorations appear quite distinctive - maybe Artzi or some of the other long-time collectors of N/NE African and Near East pieces can comment?

Regards,
Kai

If two books have got it wrong, do any others have a different identification? I've searched mine to no avail.
Although this has been a very helpful thread in as much as I now know that the two I've been offered are WAY overpriced! lol
I think you're right Kai, without more input this will remain a subject of mystery!
Thanks
Gene

Tim Simmons · 26th November 2010, 05:50 PM

Searching searching finding this in " Swords & Daggers, Frederick Wilkinson " Clearly there is much movement to and from the Horn of Africa and the Arabian peninsular. I hope to come up with more, this is rather a fancy example.

Emanuel · 26th November 2010, 08:03 PM

Here's one I posted for comment a while ago.
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12115
I had thought maybe a huge tourist Iraqi Marsh Arab jambiya type.
Alex figured EAst African, mid-20th.

kai · 28th November 2010, 01:29 AM

Quote:

If two books have got it wrong, do any others have a different identification?

Hello Gene,

Not necessarily wrong - most books and museums state where a piece was collected and this is most likely correct. In this case, there was no in-depth discussion and I don't think it wasn't implied to have been crafted in W Java (or by any Batak group for the other example).

Regards,
Kai

25th November 2010, 08:41 PM	#2
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello, These examples from Indonesia are neither Batak nor Sunda (W Java), IHMO: The style just doesn't fit with any Malay/Sumatran/Sunda/whatever Indonesian culture. That they seem to pop up here and there throughout the archipelago seems to be best explained by the Haji, as mentioned by Ian in the other thread, or plain trade (only few Batak were Muslim). There are local adaptations of Arab style daggers (Jambea, Beladau, Sadop, etc.) but these are different and usually sport local traditional decorations and craftmanship. Regards, Kai Last edited by kai; 25th November 2010 at 08:56 PM. Reason: wrong attribution of the haji

26th November 2010, 05:50 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Searching searching finding this in " Swords & Daggers, Frederick Wilkinson " Clearly there is much movement to and from the Horn of Africa and the Arabian peninsular. I hope to come up with more, this is rather a fancy example. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 26th November 2010 at 06:29 PM. Reason: spelling

25th November 2010, 09:03 PM	#4
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Not SE Asia, not India, not Persia, not sub-saharan Africa (IMHO). The hilt and the zigzag decorations appear quite distinctive - maybe Artzi or some of the other long-time collectors of N/NE African and Near East pieces can comment? Regards, Kai

26th November 2010, 08:03 PM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Here's one I posted for comment a while ago. http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12115 I had thought maybe a huge tourist Iraqi Marsh Arab jambiya type. Alex figured EAst African, mid-20th.