Crusiform bladed Dagger E Bay

laEspadaAncha · 20th November 2010, 03:05 AM

Hi Rick,

A "cruciform" cross section would indeed indicate a hollow-ground, four-sided blade.

Robert · 20th November 2010, 06:38 AM

Yes, A very nice little dagger with a four sided blade. Still looks French to me. Imagine if you would, someone in France on the Grand Tour sees a dagger in a cutlers shop and decides to purchase it for themselves or someone they know. Dagger is brought back to England and taken to the engravers for a little embellishment. Owner looks at the engravers work book and says "I like this design, can you do this on my dagger?" engraver, not a problem. 150 years or more later, major problems on this forum. Just an idea out of left field.

Robert

David · 20th November 2010, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

Yes, A very nice little dagger with a four sided blade. Still looks French to me. Imagine if you would, someone in France on the Grand Tour sees a dagger in a cutlers shop and decides to purchase it for themselves or someone they know. Dagger is brought back to England and taken to the engravers for a little embellishment. Owner looks at the engravers work book and says "I like this design, can you do this on my dagger?" engraver, not a problem. 150 years or more later, major problems on this forum. Just an idea out of left field.

Robert

I suppose that is a possibility. Of course the Green Man does appear all over Europe even is we do see it more in this form in England, so who knows.
Is there anyone who is good at IDing various forms of dragon designs? Do they get specific from country to country in Europe?

Tim Simmons · 20th November 2010, 05:35 PM

I think the creature on the dagger ia a Wyvern.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyvern

Like the Green Man a pan European thing. I can add pictures of Swiss/German contempory Green Man masks from mountian regions. They might have different names but the same thing. It stricks me as just a little too showy to be British.

Swiss festival mask. Rather like the traditional garb of the leader of an English Morris group. Ancient roots but nothing to do with the so called neo-pagans hotch potch.

David · 20th November 2010, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I think the creature on the dagger ia a Wyvern.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyvern

Thanks Tim, i think you may have nailed that one...

Jim McDougall · 21st November 2010, 04:57 PM

The Wyvern is well known in medieval heraldry and among the mythical beastiary. The symbolism often associated with it, as I understand, includes valor, strength, wardenship and protection. It seems widely apparant in Great Britain and is of course notably present as seen on the Welsh flag.

I believe the symbolism of the Green Man may be seen in many applications in many countries and probably variants culturally, and of course it does have ancient roots including use in Pagan beliefs, rituals and symbolism. The term Neopagan signifies, as I understand, various groups and followings who practice the perpetuation of many of these traditions and beliefs from ancient times as well as modern versions, and are very much recognized as Faiths and Religions in thier pursuit of them.

I personally had not understood the magnitude of importance in understanding this beforehand, and have learned a great deal from resultant discussions here how important it is to approach these matters in discussion with the same respect and understanding which must be applied to all cultures, religions and creeds.

I think it is important to learn from all things, in our case the study of weapons, and in the context of our discussions emphatically respect these as we add observations and suggest thoughts and views.

Having said that, it is interesting to see the motif here as heavily reflecting heraldic symbolism, and while I had noted the ecclesiastic symbolism that is sometimes seen with the green man device, clearly its interpretation may be found in many cultural contexts and variations.

Though I dont believe we have reached any sort of consensus on the possible provenance or probable associations with this dagger, it seems well established it is a fascinating item which probably is from the 19th century and English in my opinion.

All best regards,
Jim

20th November 2010, 05:35 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	I think the creature on the dagger ia a Wyvern. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyvern Like the Green Man a pan European thing. I can add pictures of Swiss/German contempory Green Man masks from mountian regions. They might have different names but the same thing. It stricks me as just a little too showy to be British. Swiss festival mask. Rather like the traditional garb of the leader of an English Morris group. Ancient roots but nothing to do with the so called neo-pagans hotch potch. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 20th November 2010 at 06:50 PM.

21st November 2010, 04:57 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	The Wyvern is well known in medieval heraldry and among the mythical beastiary. The symbolism often associated with it, as I understand, includes valor, strength, wardenship and protection. It seems widely apparant in Great Britain and is of course notably present as seen on the Welsh flag. I believe the symbolism of the Green Man may be seen in many applications in many countries and probably variants culturally, and of course it does have ancient roots including use in Pagan beliefs, rituals and symbolism. The term Neopagan signifies, as I understand, various groups and followings who practice the perpetuation of many of these traditions and beliefs from ancient times as well as modern versions, and are very much recognized as Faiths and Religions in thier pursuit of them. I personally had not understood the magnitude of importance in understanding this beforehand, and have learned a great deal from resultant discussions here how important it is to approach these matters in discussion with the same respect and understanding which must be applied to all cultures, religions and creeds. I think it is important to learn from all things, in our case the study of weapons, and in the context of our discussions emphatically respect these as we add observations and suggest thoughts and views. Having said that, it is interesting to see the motif here as heavily reflecting heraldic symbolism, and while I had noted the ecclesiastic symbolism that is sometimes seen with the green man device, clearly its interpretation may be found in many cultural contexts and variations. Though I dont believe we have reached any sort of consensus on the possible provenance or probable associations with this dagger, it seems well established it is a fascinating item which probably is from the 19th century and English in my opinion. All best regards, Jim Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 22nd November 2010 at 12:39 AM.

20th November 2010, 03:05 AM	#1
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Rick, A "cruciform" cross section would indeed indicate a hollow-ground, four-sided blade.

20th November 2010, 06:38 AM	#2
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Yes, A very nice little dagger with a four sided blade. Still looks French to me. Imagine if you would, someone in France on the Grand Tour sees a dagger in a cutlers shop and decides to purchase it for themselves or someone they know. Dagger is brought back to England and taken to the engravers for a little embellishment. Owner looks at the engravers work book and says "I like this design, can you do this on my dagger?" engraver, not a problem. 150 years or more later, major problems on this forum. Just an idea out of left field. Robert