Crusiform bladed Dagger E Bay

Tim Simmons · 18th November 2010, 09:10 AM

I love gothic horror flims, my favourite film is "Dracula A.D, 1972" even if it is a bit silly. I like most of all the black mass scene with the "White Noise" album "Elecric Storm" sound track.
The artwork seen on this dagger is to my mind far to mature to have anthing to do with, you know what. It is the same Victorian taste as this box by Placido Zuloaga 1833-1910 Iron, counterfeit-damascened gold and silver, with applied gold and silver mounts, interior lined with stamped leather. held in the V&A.
Also this "Minton & Co" candlestick 1859. All under the term "The Renaisssance Revival"

Sadly the pub down the road called the Wyvern with the appropriate pub sign. Is not a Hell Fire Club last time I poped in. Perhaps I do not know the secret nod or wink

.

David · 18th November 2010, 12:35 PM

Thanks for these postings and exactly my point....and i sooooooo want that box!!!

Jim McDougall · 19th November 2010, 03:55 AM

Actually Gerald B. Gardner does happen to be the author of the notable work "Keris and Other Malay Weapons" (1936). His interests in occult coupled with his being an anthropologist, and his field work in SE Asia led to this work, but it would seem that his focus was on the anthropological aspects and ethnographic elements with these weapons rather than outright collecting of them simply as weapons themselves. I believe he saw them as importantly associated esoterica corresponding to his metaphysical beliefs.

While the use of votive or ritual weapons in established practices of certain religious or group followings, is often well established, it does not necessarily suggest that members or followers are inherently weapons collectors in general. In most cases the weapons are collectively used by the group or held in sacred places where ceremonies take place. Obviously this would not preclude personal acquisition of a weapon appropriately themed for an individual, as may well be the case with this dagger.

All best regards,
Jim

David · 19th November 2010, 04:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In most cases the weapons are collectively used by the group or held in sacred places where ceremonies take place. Obviously this would not preclude personal acquisition of a weapon appropriately themed for an individual, as may well be the case with this dagger.

Sorry Jim, but this is patently incorrect. Every member of a coven or magical lodge would indeed own their own personal athame or ritual dagger. Ceremonial lodge pactitioners (Golden Dawn, O.T.O) would also be expected to own a personal ritual sword as well as a dagger.

Jim McDougall · 19th November 2010, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Sorry Jim, but this is patently incorrect. Every member of a coven or magical lodge would indeed own their own personal athame or ritual dagger. Ceremonial lodge pactitioners (Golden Dawn, O.T.O) would also be expected to own a personal ritual sword as well as a dagger.

No problem David, and thank you for the clarification. I was trying to apply the comment broadly to include other examples outside Wiccan covens and related groups as well as Tantric Buddhists and others. Obviously there are specific differences as pertains to weaponry. I do know that fraternal orders and brotherhoods of course have thier own swords such as Freemasons and many others. I would imagine in these respects it would be better to address each group separately , but my main point was that belonging to these groups and owning a ceremonial weapon is different than being an active collector of weapons, the two not necessarily related.

All the best,
Jim

David · 19th November 2010, 07:11 AM

Well, i wasn't speaking of Tantric Buddhist groups as i have little knowledge of their workings. But i can say with some confidence that my statement does indeed apply to a fairly wide sweep of neo-pagan practices that use edge weapons edged weapons in their rituals.
I must also note that an unusually high number of my friends in this wide sweep of neo-pagan traditions (and i am not really talking about Freemasons or Fraternal Brotherhoods BTW when i speak of "Ceremonial Lodge Traditions") have a keen interest in edged weapons and that many do indeed collect them to some degree. Certainly not all, but the percentage is higher than my non pagan friends. I must qualify that, of course, by stating that most of my friends are neo-pagans.

Ron Anderson · 19th November 2010, 09:50 AM

Well then, perhaps neo-pagans broadly like knives and the like. Unlike many practicing buddhists, who would regard this as negative.

I have actually bought some very crude home-made satanic-looking daggers in markets - items poorly made with goat's heads. I've since sold them. And though they'd be quite deadly in an assault, they were unimpressive in every other respect.

It wouldn't suprise me if these were made by neo-pagans, considering the fact that there are reportedly so many popping up everywhere.

The fact is, while many neo-pagans may also be interested in items of historical interest, their religion in no way impels them to practice with items of genuine historical worth. And for the most part, they are no more educated in historical matters than most sectors of the populace.

If they have to own a sword or a dagger, they can as easily pick up some nice witchy looking 20th century fantasy item.

I suspect many do.

18th November 2010, 09:10 AM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	I love gothic horror flims, my favourite film is "Dracula A.D, 1972" even if it is a bit silly. I like most of all the black mass scene with the "White Noise" album "Elecric Storm" sound track. The artwork seen on this dagger is to my mind far to mature to have anthing to do with, you know what. It is the same Victorian taste as this box by Placido Zuloaga 1833-1910 Iron, counterfeit-damascened gold and silver, with applied gold and silver mounts, interior lined with stamped leather. held in the V&A. Also this "Minton & Co" candlestick 1859. All under the term "The Renaisssance Revival" Sadly the pub down the road called the Wyvern with the appropriate pub sign. Is not a Hell Fire Club last time I poped in. Perhaps I do not know the secret nod or wink . Attached Images

19th November 2010, 03:55 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Actually Gerald B. Gardner does happen to be the author of the notable work "Keris and Other Malay Weapons" (1936). His interests in occult coupled with his being an anthropologist, and his field work in SE Asia led to this work, but it would seem that his focus was on the anthropological aspects and ethnographic elements with these weapons rather than outright collecting of them simply as weapons themselves. I believe he saw them as importantly associated esoterica corresponding to his metaphysical beliefs. While the use of votive or ritual weapons in established practices of certain religious or group followings, is often well established, it does not necessarily suggest that members or followers are inherently weapons collectors in general. In most cases the weapons are collectively used by the group or held in sacred places where ceremonies take place. Obviously this would not preclude personal acquisition of a weapon appropriately themed for an individual, as may well be the case with this dagger. All best regards, Jim Attached Images

18th November 2010, 12:35 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Thanks for these postings and exactly my point....and i sooooooo want that box!!!

19th November 2010, 07:11 AM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Well, i wasn't speaking of Tantric Buddhist groups as i have little knowledge of their workings. But i can say with some confidence that my statement does indeed apply to a fairly wide sweep of neo-pagan practices that use edge weapons edged weapons in their rituals. I must also note that an unusually high number of my friends in this wide sweep of neo-pagan traditions (and i am not really talking about Freemasons or Fraternal Brotherhoods BTW when i speak of "Ceremonial Lodge Traditions") have a keen interest in edged weapons and that many do indeed collect them to some degree. Certainly not all, but the percentage is higher than my non pagan friends. I must qualify that, of course, by stating that most of my friends are neo-pagans.

19th November 2010, 09:50 AM	#7
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Well then, perhaps neo-pagans broadly like knives and the like. Unlike many practicing buddhists, who would regard this as negative. I have actually bought some very crude home-made satanic-looking daggers in markets - items poorly made with goat's heads. I've since sold them. And though they'd be quite deadly in an assault, they were unimpressive in every other respect. It wouldn't suprise me if these were made by neo-pagans, considering the fact that there are reportedly so many popping up everywhere. The fact is, while many neo-pagans may also be interested in items of historical interest, their religion in no way impels them to practice with items of genuine historical worth. And for the most part, they are no more educated in historical matters than most sectors of the populace. If they have to own a sword or a dagger, they can as easily pick up some nice witchy looking 20th century fantasy item. I suspect many do.