Dutch Cutlass

Amuk Murugul · 15th November 2010, 10:35 PM

Hullo everybody,

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

it's quite possible that the scabbard is a mis-match, while i am aware that dealer supplied provenances can be suspect, my klewang was supposedly recovered from an altercation between a german s-boot and british mtb in the channel here (the germans lost) with a number of others aboard the captured schnellboot that had been liberated by the germans from the dutch.

it is possible the scabbard was mismatched at the dutch depot, at the kreigsmarine when issued, after capture by the brits, or even added/mixed up by the dealer. the scabbard is brown leather (oiled) with brass chape held on by two brass staples, the re-enforcement at the throat is also brass, painted black and held on by brass rivets (also painted). it is sewn on the spine side of the scabbard.

my ex-father-in-law was a LT. in the royal navy at the time and commanded a mtb, lost a leg in a battle with a german schnellboot they captured, so i have a predilection to believing the story on my klewang

my klewang is marked 'PD LUNESCHLOSS SOLINGEN' on one side, (there is a small proof mark on the other that looks like a crowned letter of some sort), each of the three letter groups on a different line. brown wood grips, two part brass grip rivets, steel guard shell is cut with stepped corners in the european fashion, tho these are not as prominent as some others i've seen.

Kronckew ..... I don't know whether you're addressing the above to me or not, so I'll give an answer anyway. I'll keep it brief so as not to detract from Alexander's original post.
The crowned letter is probably a crowned 'W' (script/gothic font).This mark should be repeated on the pommel-cap screw, the rear inside of the guard and on one of the walnut scales (at the bottom, towards the ricasso). This ensures originality of parts.
I believe that your piece may be an M1911, in which case I feel more certain that the scabbard is a mis-match. (As far as I am aware, this type of scabbard was only made by MILSCO)
However, I am no authority on the matter, not by any stretch of the imagination.
My interest in the Klewang (Gobang Kalewang or simply, Kalewang to me) is only in so far as its ties with the Soenda.
Having said all that, I still stand by what I have said (in the absence of incontrovertible evidence to the contrary).

Best,

Henk · 25th November 2010, 10:17 PM

This weapon is most likely a police klewang. The klewang no.2 police. Identical to the klewang-marechaussee M. 1913 with two differences. It is not chrome-plated but nickeled and the blade edge is sharp. This was done in the factory. In addition no KM-mark (for Koninklijke Marechaussee) can be found on the hilt.
The klewang was used from 1898 until 1968 by many police forces. Only these two klewangs had metal scabbards.

Amuk Murugul · 26th November 2010, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

This weapon is most likely a police klewang. The klewang no.2 police. Identical to the klewang-marechaussee M. 1913 with two differences. It is not chrome-plated but nickeled and the blade edge is sharp. This was done in the factory. In addition no KM-mark (for Koninklijke Marechaussee) can be found on the hilt.
The klewang was used from 1898 until 1968 by many police forces. Only these two klewangs had metal scabbards.

Hullo Henk,

Would you be able to post a picture of a KM hilt with the KM-mark? Thanks.
I suspect that you are correct in that it is a police klewang (i.e. No. 2). I just didn't want to complicate the issue by differentiating between a KM and a No.2. (I wasn't sure about the above hilt not having a 'KM'-mark. Do they ALL have a KM-mark and it ALWAYS in the same position on the hilt?)
Also, as you will have noticed, the serial no. doesn't have a 'KM' pre-fix. ( I wasn't sure whether ALL KMs had a KM pre-fix)

Best,

Henk · 28th November 2010, 04:39 PM

Hello Amuk Murugul,

Unfortunately I cann't place a picture of a hilt with the KM mark. I haven't a picture avaible and neither such a klewang. The place of the KM mark is on the hilt just above the handguard. All klewang of the Koninklijke Marechaussee have a KM mark with number and all on the same position. The klewang of the Koninklijke Marechaussee is a military weapon and is therefore standard on the same position.

ruiter58 · 12th December 2010, 10:16 PM

Hello Alexander,

I own a klewang just like the one you´re having (mine has number 671) and as far as I can tell from the pictures it´s original. The Klewang I have does not have the mentioned KM mark either but I do have a letter (1986) from the director (The director in 1986 that is) of the "Koninklijke Marechausse Museum" stating that it is an original KM Klewang (Based on photo´s I´ve sent him) I do have another Klewang with a KM mark on it (This one was investigated by Mr Puype in 1983, he is co-author of the mentioned klewang book) The KM one I have (with a leather scabbard) has been issued to the Dutch Royal navy in 1935. In this case the KM stands for "Koninklijke Marine" (Royal Navy).

I will check in the Klewang book if I can find some more information on the Marechaussee Klewang. As stated earlier in another post, this type of klewang was also used by the Dutch police forces.

The Klewang is still in use today but only ceremonial. You can see the Marechausse klewang in use when the opening of the dutch parliament takes place. Every year on the third tuesday in september this is on. You can find some pictures using the search "prinsjesdag klewang". Mind you that they are probably using newly created klewangs (somewhere during the eighties, easy to recognize by their very thin layer of chrome)

Henk · 14th December 2010, 06:57 PM

ruiter58,

In the first place welcome to the forum.

Can you explain to me why the director of the "Koninklijke Marechausse Museum" is stating despite the missing KM-mark on your klewang that this is an original KM klewang and not a klewang no.2 police despite the statement of J.P. Puype, the conservator of the Dutch Army Museum and R.J. de Stürler-Boekwijt in their book Catalogue of the Dutch Army Museum? The same book that you're going to check to find some more information on the Marechaussee Klewang.

Amuk Murugul · 15th December 2010, 04:22 AM

Hullo everybody,

My twee-duit's worth:

I managed to rescue a KM from neglect. It had traces of chrome plate on the guard, scabbard etc. However, it was pretty much rusted. So, I decided to do an immediate cleaning. As the item was located in ..... wait for it ..... HAWAII (of all places), I decided on fruit juice as the cleanser. I disassembled it and cleaned. All parts were original to the piece. (see attached photo; please don't step on my toes

)
I noticed that the serial no. had no 'KM' prefix. I sought a definitive answer to this, but to date, have had no reply from any Dutch authority/museum.
However, I seem to remember that the Leger Museum in Delft has KM's that are with and w/o this prefix.

Please enlighten me.

Best,

12th December 2010, 10:16 PM	#5
ruiter58 Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Kytlice, Czech Republic Posts: 19	Marechaussee Klewang Hello Alexander, I own a klewang just like the one you´re having (mine has number 671) and as far as I can tell from the pictures it´s original. The Klewang I have does not have the mentioned KM mark either but I do have a letter (1986) from the director (The director in 1986 that is) of the "Koninklijke Marechausse Museum" stating that it is an original KM Klewang (Based on photo´s I´ve sent him) I do have another Klewang with a KM mark on it (This one was investigated by Mr Puype in 1983, he is co-author of the mentioned klewang book) The KM one I have (with a leather scabbard) has been issued to the Dutch Royal navy in 1935. In this case the KM stands for "Koninklijke Marine" (Royal Navy). I will check in the Klewang book if I can find some more information on the Marechaussee Klewang. As stated earlier in another post, this type of klewang was also used by the Dutch police forces. The Klewang is still in use today but only ceremonial. You can see the Marechausse klewang in use when the opening of the dutch parliament takes place. Every year on the third tuesday in september this is on. You can find some pictures using the search "prinsjesdag klewang". Mind you that they are probably using newly created klewangs (somewhere during the eighties, easy to recognize by their very thin layer of chrome)

15th December 2010, 04:22 AM	#7
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 472	M1913 Klewang Marechaussee (KM) Hullo everybody, My twee-duit's worth: I managed to rescue a KM from neglect. It had traces of chrome plate on the guard, scabbard etc. However, it was pretty much rusted. So, I decided to do an immediate cleaning. As the item was located in ..... wait for it ..... HAWAII (of all places), I decided on fruit juice as the cleanser. I disassembled it and cleaned. All parts were original to the piece. (see attached photo; please don't step on my toes ) I noticed that the serial no. had no 'KM' prefix. I sought a definitive answer to this, but to date, have had no reply from any Dutch authority/museum. However, I seem to remember that the Leger Museum in Delft has KM's that are with and w/o this prefix. Please enlighten me. Best, Attached Images Last edited by Amuk Murugul; 15th December 2010 at 04:34 AM.

25th November 2010, 10:17 PM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	This weapon is most likely a police klewang. The klewang no.2 police. Identical to the klewang-marechaussee M. 1913 with two differences. It is not chrome-plated but nickeled and the blade edge is sharp. This was done in the factory. In addition no KM-mark (for Koninklijke Marechaussee) can be found on the hilt. The klewang was used from 1898 until 1968 by many police forces. Only these two klewangs had metal scabbards.

28th November 2010, 04:39 PM	#4
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Hello Amuk Murugul, Unfortunately I cann't place a picture of a hilt with the KM mark. I haven't a picture avaible and neither such a klewang. The place of the KM mark is on the hilt just above the handguard. All klewang of the Koninklijke Marechaussee have a KM mark with number and all on the same position. The klewang of the Koninklijke Marechaussee is a military weapon and is therefore standard on the same position.

14th December 2010, 06:57 PM	#6
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	ruiter58, In the first place welcome to the forum. Can you explain to me why the director of the "Koninklijke Marechausse Museum" is stating despite the missing KM-mark on your klewang that this is an original KM klewang and not a klewang no.2 police despite the statement of J.P. Puype, the conservator of the Dutch Army Museum and R.J. de Stürler-Boekwijt in their book Catalogue of the Dutch Army Museum? The same book that you're going to check to find some more information on the Marechaussee Klewang.