New Kilij

M.carter · 19th June 2005, 01:54 AM

Well, I can tell you that thread in which Artzi restored the Kilij hilt, that would too hard and very dangerous to do (somehow, he did it!). You will need (as I remember) epoxy putty (readily available, easy to use) and a welding machine (or someone who has one). If you want to re-tighten the grip scales, first you must cut the rivets and pull the entire hilt apart (2 grip scales, brass/silver strap, crossguard.), clean the tang. Weld the brass/ silver strap back on. Then stick the two slabs back onto the tang (be careful not to fill in the holes in the tang). Then add two new rivets. Then fix the crossguard with epoxy putty too.

I find epoxy putty as a replacement medium acceptable, one, it is much more harder and better than cutlers resin, two, it is much more easier to "obtain" and use.

M.carter · 19th June 2005, 01:57 AM

Clay is too brittle, and your hilt would start to loosen up once you swing the sword.

Conogre · 19th June 2005, 03:06 AM

Yannis, before I forget, I believe the type of suspension cord arrangement that you are referring to is called a "baldric".
That's very interesting information on the Syrian/Egyptian blades, with my first impulse being Ottoman with the stacked fullers being very similar to those found on knives and daggers from Surmene, in Turkey.
Reference the epoxy putty, it's readily available, of all places, in most pet shops that carry coral and marine fish and invertebrates, as it's a two part compound that is mixed up and used to secure live coral pieces to a larger piece of base rock to create artificial reefs ....it's actually safe enough that it is used with even very fragile live corals and yet will cure underwater, with seawater being one of the most corrosive environments known.
Another beautiful sword!
Mike

tom hyle · 19th June 2005, 10:06 AM

There are a lot of epoxies, some of them too expensive for me to have ever messed with. Most of the ones I've used can be a bit brittle for work on swords, but are indeed, not too bad. Two cautions about epoxy: one is the fumes, sometimes smellable and sometimes not, sometimes with a buzz or headache, sometimes not, are poisonous; ventilation is a good thing; I personally won't do Bondo for instance without a mask though; and B clean/degrease the surfaces real good first; strong alcohol works well and is relatively nontoxic; some roughening can help too, in contrast to some adhesives that work best on tightly matching smooth surfaces.
The tang band soldering is done with a soldering iron, either newfangled or oldfashioned; there can be a torch involved, but the level of heat is not comparable to direct iron to iron welding. Please never use an electric welder on a sword unless you want to dangerously ruin its temper (potentially creating nasty brittle areas; a soft area at best), or intend to reharden afterwards. Various types of soldering, even of brazing, can be done on tempered blades without altering the temper (unless it is very hard; harder than usual for weapons) by expert welders, and this is why it is a semitraditional way to repair blades and is fairly commonly seen as a repair for cracks and delaminations on old blades.

Gt Obach · 19th June 2005, 03:15 PM

heres a link to some knife makers testing and debating which is the best epoxy

enjoy!

http://www.knifenetwork.com/forum/sh...highlight=glue

Greg

tom hyle · 19th June 2005, 04:54 PM

Thanks!

ariel · 19th June 2005, 07:17 PM

Thanks.

Yannis · 20th June 2005, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conogre

Yannis, before I forget, I believe the type of suspension cord arrangement that you are referring to is called a "baldric".

Conogre. Thank you for the term. I hope I will not forget it. You can see the way they wear this baldric in a famous greek painting below.

Also you can see a scabbard like this from a greek collection. The blade is ottoman.

Finally, once again I say that Ariel's blade is not Persian but Ottoman. I have one almost the same, with same guard and almost same hilt, but more plain scabbard. Unfortunatly I cannot post picture now.

I have never seen a proven Persian kilij of this type (sort and wide blade).

ariel · 20th June 2005, 05:40 PM

I completely agree with Yannis: this is an Ottoman one. The bulbous "pistol" handle and the slit in the scabbard are unmistakeable.
However, Ottoman doesn't mean Turkish: the Empire included the entire Middle East, Egypt (albeit nominally), the Balkans etc. Thus, while the overall style is unquestionably "Ottoman", this sword could have come from rather unexpected places. That is where the question of decorations of the scabbard becomes important.
The blade could have been locally-made or imported from Iran (despite being official enemies, the two empires traded with each other quite extensively, including wepons). Thus, it may be of inferior "localizing" quality than the decorations that were made by a master using peculiarly-national patterns.

Andrew · 20th June 2005, 06:57 PM

I don't think Ham is disputing that this sword is of Ottoman manufacture. His distinction is that the blade, itself, is a Persian trade blade in Ottoman mounts.

ariel · 20th June 2005, 11:26 PM

No problem with it: I fully agree.
Any ideas about decorative elements? As per Yannis, they may be Greek .Any other opinions?

19th June 2005, 01:54 AM	#1
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Well, I can tell you that thread in which Artzi restored the Kilij hilt, that would too hard and very dangerous to do (somehow, he did it!). You will need (as I remember) epoxy putty (readily available, easy to use) and a welding machine (or someone who has one). If you want to re-tighten the grip scales, first you must cut the rivets and pull the entire hilt apart (2 grip scales, brass/silver strap, crossguard.), clean the tang. Weld the brass/ silver strap back on. Then stick the two slabs back onto the tang (be careful not to fill in the holes in the tang). Then add two new rivets. Then fix the crossguard with epoxy putty too. I find epoxy putty as a replacement medium acceptable, one, it is much more harder and better than cutlers resin, two, it is much more easier to "obtain" and use.

19th June 2005, 01:57 AM	#2
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Clay is too brittle, and your hilt would start to loosen up once you swing the sword.

19th June 2005, 03:06 AM	#3
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Yannis, before I forget, I believe the type of suspension cord arrangement that you are referring to is called a "baldric". That's very interesting information on the Syrian/Egyptian blades, with my first impulse being Ottoman with the stacked fullers being very similar to those found on knives and daggers from Surmene, in Turkey. Reference the epoxy putty, it's readily available, of all places, in most pet shops that carry coral and marine fish and invertebrates, as it's a two part compound that is mixed up and used to secure live coral pieces to a larger piece of base rock to create artificial reefs ....it's actually safe enough that it is used with even very fragile live corals and yet will cure underwater, with seawater being one of the most corrosive environments known. Another beautiful sword! Mike

19th June 2005, 10:06 AM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	There are a lot of epoxies, some of them too expensive for me to have ever messed with. Most of the ones I've used can be a bit brittle for work on swords, but are indeed, not too bad. Two cautions about epoxy: one is the fumes, sometimes smellable and sometimes not, sometimes with a buzz or headache, sometimes not, are poisonous; ventilation is a good thing; I personally won't do Bondo for instance without a mask though; and B clean/degrease the surfaces real good first; strong alcohol works well and is relatively nontoxic; some roughening can help too, in contrast to some adhesives that work best on tightly matching smooth surfaces. The tang band soldering is done with a soldering iron, either newfangled or oldfashioned; there can be a torch involved, but the level of heat is not comparable to direct iron to iron welding. Please never use an electric welder on a sword unless you want to dangerously ruin its temper (potentially creating nasty brittle areas; a soft area at best), or intend to reharden afterwards. Various types of soldering, even of brazing, can be done on tempered blades without altering the temper (unless it is very hard; harder than usual for weapons) by expert welders, and this is why it is a semitraditional way to repair blades and is fairly commonly seen as a repair for cracks and delaminations on old blades.

19th June 2005, 03:15 PM	#5
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	heres a link to some knife makers testing and debating which is the best epoxy enjoy! http://www.knifenetwork.com/forum/sh...highlight=glue Greg

19th June 2005, 04:54 PM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Thanks!

19th June 2005, 07:17 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks.

20th June 2005, 05:40 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I completely agree with Yannis: this is an Ottoman one. The bulbous "pistol" handle and the slit in the scabbard are unmistakeable. However, Ottoman doesn't mean Turkish: the Empire included the entire Middle East, Egypt (albeit nominally), the Balkans etc. Thus, while the overall style is unquestionably "Ottoman", this sword could have come from rather unexpected places. That is where the question of decorations of the scabbard becomes important. The blade could have been locally-made or imported from Iran (despite being official enemies, the two empires traded with each other quite extensively, including wepons). Thus, it may be of inferior "localizing" quality than the decorations that were made by a master using peculiarly-national patterns.

20th June 2005, 06:57 PM	#10
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I don't think Ham is disputing that this sword is of Ottoman manufacture. His distinction is that the blade, itself, is a Persian trade blade in Ottoman mounts.

20th June 2005, 11:26 PM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	No problem with it: I fully agree. Any ideas about decorative elements? As per Yannis, they may be Greek .Any other opinions?