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30th October 2010, 09:55 AM
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#1 |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,063
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HI Cesare,
it can be classified as an Oakeshott type XI (Jim,sometimes swords can classified in more then one type however type X is broader and has a wide and shallow fuller, type XI is more valid here ) and it can be dated 1050-1150. This was a long sword because with this type 2/3 of the blade has parallel edges and approx. 1/4 is missing (blade length around 90cm would be proper for this sword) the inlaid mark in silver looks authentic most of the inlays in type XI swords are in silver! Oakeshott published in the sword in the age of chivalry about this type of s-mark found in type XI swords. quote"most common are tiny silver or latten inlays OSO or SOS; nearly as common is an S enclosed within an O unquote" (pag142 ) the meaning of SOS is probably Sancta o (maria) Sancta. (oakeshott roms) The same mark however in brass is on a sword published in records of the medieval sword XIIa.4 page 93! The cross potent has been widely used and has nothing to do with Switzerland. the pommel is a nice and bulky Brazil nut and of a oakeshott type B or Petersen X. it seems mostly found on swords which can be dated between 1050-1150. (cf Oakeshott pag 93 tsitaoc) regards HI Cesare, esso può essere classificato come un tipo di Oakeshott XI (Jim, a volte le spade può classificati in più di un tipo però di tipo X è più ampio e dispone di un ampia gamma e poco profondo, tipo XI è più valido qui) e può essere datato 1050-1150. Questa è stata una lunga spada, perché con questo tipo 2 / 3 della lama ha bordi paralleli e ca. 1 / 4 è mancante (circa 90 centimetri di lunghezza lama sarebbe appropriato per questa spada) il marchio intarsiati in argento aspetto più autentico degli intarsi nel tipo spade XI sono in argento! Oakeshott pubblicato nella spada nella età della cavalleria su questo tipo di s-marchio trovato nel tipo spade XI. quota "più comuni sono piccoli o lamierino argento intarsi OSO o SOS, quasi come comune è un S racchiuso in un unquote O" (pag142) il significato di SOS è probabilmente O Sancta (Maria) Sancta. (Roms Oakeshott) Il marchio stesso, però è in ottone su una spada pubblicato nei registri della pagina di spada medievale XIIa.4 93! Il potente croce è stato ampiamente utilizzato e non ha nulla a che fare con la Svizzera. il pomo è un dado bello e ingombrante Brasile e di un tipo di Oakeshott B o Petersen X. appare più che trovato su spade che può essere datato tra il 1050-1150. (Cfr pag 93 Oakeshott tsitaoc) per quanto riguarda Last edited by cornelistromp; 30th October 2010 at 12:38 PM. |
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30th October 2010, 10:18 AM
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#2 |
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Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 247
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Ciao Cesare,
qui un dettaglio di una S simile ma in più cattive condizioni , da una spada del periodo della I crociata circa 1100 della Germania del sud. Saluti Hi at all , here a photo of a similar S silver mark on a I° Crusader sword type dated to 1100 circa . It is south german . Regards |
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30th October 2010, 12:41 PM
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#3 |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,063
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Cesare,
Can you tell if the inlays are made from twisted strips, if you look closely can you see diagonal lines in the inlay? best, Cesare, Si può sapere se gli intarsi sono realizzati da nastri intrecciati, se si guarda attentamente si può vedere linee diagonali nel intarsio? meglio, Last edited by cornelistromp; 30th October 2010 at 12:54 PM. |
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30th October 2010, 01:24 PM
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#4 | |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 22
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Quote:
it's hard to say. The restoration may have altered the surface of the inlay. Here is a photo taken with a digital microscope at about 100 magnifications. |
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30th October 2010, 06:33 PM
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#5 |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,063
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Hi,
it is difficult to see, but looks like the flat wide ring is made out of a (twisted) strip, this is an early inlay technique the twisted stripes were hammered in the slots when the blade was stil hot however under melting point of 960C. in the case of silver.(Viking swords do have the same technique of inlays with iron strips.) A nice detail is that the point is broken off and not rotten away! also the dark black goethite patina points at a conservation in water. I think this is a water find.?!? The "handwriting" of the S can be found on same type XI swords dating all around 1100.The sword is much older then the fortress and difficult to link to any battle. regards fom holland Ciao, è difficile da vedere, ma sembra che l'anello ampio appartamento è composto da una (twisted) striscia, si tratta di una tecnica dell'intarsio presto le strisce erano contorti martellate nelle fessure, quando la lama era stil caldo però sotto il punto di fusione di 960C. nel caso di argento. (spade Viking hanno la stessa tecnica di intarsi con le strisce di ferro.) Un dettaglio interessante è che il punto è rotto e non marcio via! anche al buio nero patina punti goethite a una conservazione in acqua. Penso che questo è un acqua a trovare.?!? La "scrittura" della S si possono trovare sul spade stesso tipo XI datazione intorno spada 1100.The è molto più vecchio allora la fortezza e difficile da collegare a qualsiasi battaglia. per quanto riguarda holland fom |
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30th October 2010, 07:02 PM
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#6 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 22
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[QUOTE=cornelistromp]Hi,
it is difficult to see, but looks like the flat wide ring is made out of a (twisted) strip, this is an early inlay technique the twisted stripes were hammered in the slots when the blade was stil hot however under melting point of 960C. in the case of silver.(Viking swords do have the same technique of inlays with iron strips.) A nice detail is that the point is broken off and not rotten away! also the dark black goethite patina points at a conservation in water. I think this is a water find.?!? The "handwriting" of the S can be found on same type XI swords dating all around 1100.The sword is much older then the fortress and difficult to link to any battle. regards fom holland Thanks for the help As soon as I return to the museum I will do more pictures with digital microscope. I hope to be more detailed. I agree with you and other friends of the forum on the dating of the sword. Probably (in my opinion) is a "weapon of family", handed down from father to son. and ended badly in the battles of the 13th century, near the fortess. Regards Cesare |
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30th October 2010, 07:32 PM
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#7 |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,587
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Thank you so much Cornelis! Absolutely outstanding and detailed description, and for clarifying these. My knowledge on this field is admittedly limited, and I feel lucky to have gotten that close in the hours of research before I wrote my post!!
 The main thing here is learning, and its great to have this distinctly pertinant information. Very good points on the classification transcending the categories as with transition and varying makers preferences or styles, we can only broadly presume the closest application in many cases. Regarding the marks, it is true that there is probably a great deal of unreliability in all of the resources on these as the groupings are of course compendiums taken from attributed examples presumed from certain dates and places. While many have more documented support than others, many are simply assumed, like the cross assumed a makers mark. The information on the S is excellent, and great information on the use of silver inlay!!! Cesare, thank you for these great entries, and please keep them coming It really is a wonderful way to learn, from these wonderful pieces of history found in situ there in Italy. All the best, Jim |
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